Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
How are you still repeating this? It's already been pointed out multiple times by different people why that comparison is completely flawed
... Penals are the closest counterpart to PGs.
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
You have to debate that with Elaindil not me
Point stands PG are too expensive investment, coming too late, facing vetted powerful infatry and vehicles by the time they hit the field at T2.
So people simply do not build them.
Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
...
Yes I understand your opinion
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
That is very constructive.
There are solution but it seem that simply moving PG back T2 it putting the problem under the rug instead of solving it.
Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
Can just as easily say that moving them earlier created new problems just to solve a new one. That seems pretty senseless to me
Moving them earlier was a mistake and same mistake as buffing Penal to 300 manpower power level unit. If there is room for 300 manpower power level unit at minute 0, there is room for a 340 manpower unit at minute 4.
This unit should not available that early or they should follow PF designed and arrive early at lower power level and have to upgrade to full potential.
....
The current time frames are very small and Power level of early units are too high to be able to fit these unit in properly.
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Posts: 783
I don't think that really matters. They are strong from the time they hit the field to the end of the match. Whether or not the buffs effected their new timing doesn't mean much
Posts: 356
T2 used to be more expensive back then... the argument doesnt necessarily hold since T2 is cheaper now...
in any case pgrens need taken a look at because they are OP in their current state...
Posts: 1979
The same patch that reduced t2 cost moved pgrens IIRC.
I was a big proponent for making pgrens accessible earlier at the time it happened. I actually wanted them to stay in t2, but this would have required other changes to keep the 222 at it's current timing.
Posts: 356
Posts: 17886 | Subs: 8
Could someone please link a replay demonstrating that Pgrens are OP?
One without ostruppen as those are already being nerfed.
Simply ignoring the arguments for their current position only betrays a complete lack of substance to the "PGRENS ARE OP GUYZ!!!!!!111" side.
OST was completely absent from tourneys prior to their buff, and was markedly absent even after their buff until ostruppen became meta.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
Posts: 356
Osttruppen still do work.
They are just not as overpowering as they were, but that strat is toned down, not killed off.
Well, they did received a numerous vet improvements and adjustments that make them much more potent much earlier then old ones did and there still is a possibility they crept too strong too early, preview games with average players aren't going to show that unless all the tops hop in to contribute.
And now its a faction with highest winrate.
We won't see how big of a factor osttruppen alone were(they they were significant one) until patch hits live and more good players put hands on it.
Posts: 97
Could someone please link a replay demonstrating that Pgrens are OP?
Posts: 97
Posts: 1594
Pretty much this. Plus none of the buffs they recieced directly helps them at their new timing.
The reason nobody bought them was because they arrived at a time when you couldn't afford to skimp on early game infantry squads like grens so you ended up having 4 grens and not really room to buy pgrens. The added mp cost of having to buy tier 2 first meant that you could either pick up a pgren or get a light vehicle and light vehicles have greater shock value.
Imo moving them back to tier 2 would just cause the same issues as before.
Posts: 1515
Welcome to my world
Posts: 356
Can you point out where anyone called PGrens OP? It's their timing that's seems OP not the unit itself if you actually read the topic.
Most people here that are saying that their timing is OP are fine with just moving them to T2 without any changes to the unit itself. (me included)
And all of this is because soviets struggle very hard against PGs since they have nothing to rival them when they come so early. Other allied factions don't have nearly as much trouble dealing with PGs.
Posts: 133
Posts: 97
Why not just move PzGrens to T1 (and still require BP1 ofc)? That deals with problems they cause in T1 skips and otherwise doesn't really effect them. They would still be quite strong but you at the very least make their fastest timing a bit slower.
Posts: 1594
How is that different from building from HQ? Since both of these buildings are up by BP1 and T1 building is free to build anything by that time? Am I missing something? T1 skips with dead osttruppen will be almost non existant now.
Requiring T2 building to be up actually delays a little (they can be left in HQ)
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