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Conscript 7th men too much?

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19 Oct 2020, 03:25 AM
#141
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 00:38 AMSerrith

You used an arbitrary distinction to support the reason behind the efficacy of an upgrade.


No I didn't. I was just pointing out to you that it's not a weapon upgrade. As I have said numerous times, the fact that cons have no upgrade until t4 is the reason that supports its efficacy

I don't know how many times I have to say it dude. It is clearly different from other mainline upgrades, which are available much earlier. That is the reason its okay

It also just happens to not be a weapon upgrade... They literally keep the same weapons. That is NOT the justification of it's existence. It's just a fact.
19 Oct 2020, 03:52 AM
#142
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783



No I didn't. I was just pointing out to you that it's not a weapon upgrade. As I have said numerous times, the fact that cons have no upgrade until t4 is the reason that supports its efficacy

I don't know how many times I have to say it dude. It is clearly different from other mainline upgrades, which are available much earlier. That is the reason its okay

It also just happens to not be a weapon upgrade... They literally keep the same weapons. That is NOT the justification of it's existence. It's just a fact.


You are arguing something I am not arguing against. You are implying I am saying that the power of the upgrade is an issue because it's stronger then upgrades that come earlier. I am not saying that at all.
In fact I think for the most part the 7 man upgrade is fine.


Since there seems to be an issue of communication, here are the relevant posts:
jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2020, 08:12 AMSerrith

Thing is unlike most weapon upgrades, the 7man upgrade gives a substantial DPS boost at ALL ranges.




I mean, might that be because it's not a weapon upgrade? You will find a similar phenomena with 5 man grens. Or bolster



What I said was that the squad has improved dps at all ranges. What you said was that this was due to the fact that the upgrade was not a weapon upgrade.

First I disagree that its not a weapon upgrade.
Do the weapons of the squad get better? Yes? Then its a weapon upgrade. You don't need to swap out equipment for the equipment to be upgraded.


Second I disagree that the reason the squads dps improves at all ranges is because of the distinction that the upgrade is "not a weapon upgrade". In fact I dont see why that matters at all. The FG42 upgrade for FSJ also upgrades the squads dps at all ranges and you have to agree that IS a weapon upgrade.
19 Oct 2020, 04:41 AM
#143
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 03:52 AMSerrith

What I said was that the squad has improved dps at all ranges. What you said was that this was due to the fact that the upgrade was not a weapon upgrade.

No it's not. I was simply pointing out to you that I wouldn't call it a weapon upgrade. I have told you multiple times now that the distinction is not a justification for anything. It's just an explanation. It's pretty obvious that a squad size upgrade increases dps at all ranges. Why are you pointing that out in the first place???

I couldn't care less what you call the upgrade to be honest. If you think the upgrade doesnt need any nerfs then we agree. I thought you were pointing that out to say it needs to be brought in line with those upgrades

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 03:52 AMSerrith

Second I disagree that the reason the squads dps improves at all ranges is because of the distinction that the upgrade is "not a weapon upgrade".

THATS NOT THE REASON. How many times do I have to say it. I have said it numerous times, the thing that justifies it's potency is the fact that its locked behind t4. That is the reason

Whether or not it's technically a weapon upgrade is the least important part of this discussion. The fact is that it's completely different from other weapon upgrades available to mainlines, by design. It's not an accident

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 03:52 AMSerrith
The FG42 upgrade for FSJ also upgrades the squads dps at all ranges and you have to agree that IS a weapon upgrade.

Because it swaps out 2 weapons..... 7 man cons increases dps at all ranges because it adds another man.... The only other dps boost is in cover
19 Oct 2020, 07:52 AM
#144
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783


...


Please re-read the relevant posts which I included in my previous post and point out where you (or I for that matter) mention anything about timing.

Yes I understand that the upgrade is a potent one and its timing is a potential justification for it. No, that was not what you originally wrote. What you wrote was
"I mean, might that be because it's not a weapon upgrade? You will find a similar phenomena with 5 man grens. Or bolster"


Please point out where timing was mentioned as a justification in this post. Please point out where I argued the upgrade is too strong in the post this was responding to.
19 Oct 2020, 08:35 AM
#145
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1



Dont want to answer everything, since this can continue for ages with this counter aurguments. I will just say, that PFs represpent a good excample of what volks should have been.

Their 80muni G43 comes slitghtly later then STGs, make unit truly flexable at all ranges without butchering any of them and, unlike volks, G43 PFs are usefull during the whole game. And they also hit their top early with that 80muni upgrade, but because upgrade is actually have an thought put behind it, its suddenly make squad usefull untill the end of the game.

PFs benifit from all other OKW advantages, but they are just a plain good designed inf squad, with good designed upgrade. But OKW having good mainline inf doesn't make them suddenly OP or broken, considering unupgraded PFs perform rufly the same as volks, if not wost, early on.
19 Oct 2020, 09:02 AM
#146
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3


Dont want to answer everything, since this can continue for ages with this counter aurguments. I will just say, that PFs represpent a good excample of what volks should have been.

Their 80muni G43 comes slitghtly later then STGs, make unit truly flexable at all ranges without butchering any of them and, unlike volks, G43 PFs are usefull during the whole game. And they also hit their top early with that 80muni upgrade, but because upgrade is actually have an thought put behind it, its suddenly make squad usefull untill the end of the game.

PFs benifit from all other OKW advantages, but they are just a plain good designed inf squad, with good designed upgrade. But OKW having good mainline inf doesn't make them suddenly OP or broken, considering unupgraded PFs perform rufly the same as volks, if not wost, early on.


Imagine having to justify how broken Panzerfusiliers are by exhalting them being all range squads and calling it a “good design”. The bias of some people here is sickening.
19 Oct 2020, 15:56 PM
#148
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 07:52 AMSerrith

Please point out where timing was mentioned as a justification in this post. Please point out where I argued the upgrade is too strong in the post this was responding to.

Once again, it wasn't, you are misunderstanding the point of that post. It wasn't a justification for anything, I was simply pointing out the obvious

It's obviously different from other weapon upgrades. And it's pretty obvious that a squad size upgrade increases dps at all ranges. You're literally adding another person shooting, so I still don't know why you're pointing that out

Hence the examples of bolster and 5 man grens. Which also "increase dps at all ranges". This will happen to any unit that can increase its squad size...
19 Oct 2020, 16:25 PM
#149
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783


Once again, it wasn't, you are misunderstanding the point of that post. It wasn't a justification for anything, I was simply pointing out the obvious

It's obviously different from other weapon upgrades. And it's pretty obvious that a squad size upgrade increases dps at all ranges. You're literally adding another person shooting, so I still don't know why you're pointing that out

Hence the examples of bolster and 5 man grens. Which also "increase dps at all ranges". This will happen to any unit that can increase its squad size...


7 man upgrade also reduces the cooldown of the conscript mosins by 30% when in cover(~15-20% dps increase at all ranges). Even if the 7man upgrade didn't increase the squad size, it would STILL be a damage upgrade at all ranges.
Bolster does not improve the stock weapons at all.
19 Oct 2020, 16:30 PM
#150
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 213



Imagine having to justify how broken Panzerfusiliers are by exhalting them being all range squads and calling it a “good design”. The bias of some people here is sickening.


Broken? Combatwise they perform between a 1*Bar and a 2*Bar Rifle squad for similar manpower and munition investment. Their at snare range got (rightfully) nerfed, so the only advantage they have over rifles is their vision. And you trade that for a weaker pre upgrade performance compared to volks. There is a reason that they didnt get used much in tournaments despite Grand offensive being the number one commander at the time.

About cons:
I dislike the 7men upgrade, cause it makes them really survivable and cost efficient. But before that introduction cons were kinda underwhelming and i think they are more balanced now than they were pre 7men.
So as long as there is no other viable adjustement for cons (or the entire early/midgame sov roster), its probably better to keep this upgrade as it is.


19 Oct 2020, 17:19 PM
#151
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 16:25 PMSerrith

7 man upgrade also reduces the cooldown of the conscript mosins by 30% when in cover(~15-20% dps increase at all ranges).

I have already mentioned this bonus numerous times. It still doesn't support your point. Weapon upgrades don't boost other weapons in the squad, they replace some of them with better ones. It's still a completely different mechanic

The lmg42 upgrade does not boost the stats of the grens kar98ks, ppshs don't boost the conscript mosins...etc

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 16:25 PMSerrith

Even if the 7man upgrade didn't increase the squad size, it would STILL be a damage upgrade at all ranges.

All ranges *when in cover* But this point also makes no sense at all, if it didn't increase squad size the upgrade wouldn't exist because getting the 7th man is literally the whole point

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 16:25 PMSerrith

Bolster does not improve the stock weapons at all.

Neither do weapon upgrades... They replace them, instead of improving them. Like I said, gren kar98ks don't get a stat boost from the lmg42

Again this is the least important part of this discussion. If you think the 7man upgrade is fine, then we agree
19 Oct 2020, 17:27 PM
#152
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 16:30 PMGeblobt


Broken? Combatwise they perform between a 1*Bar and a 2*Bar Rifle squad for similar manpower and munition investment. Their at snare range got (rightfully) nerfed, so the only advantage they have over rifles is their vision. And you trade that for a weaker pre upgrade performance compared to volks. There is a reason that they didnt get used much in tournaments despite Grand offensive being the number one commander at the time.


Imagine implying a 6man squad with 3 G43s with 80% moving accuracy and a lethal grenade, no sidetech for nade or snare, is between 1 and 2 BAR riflemen in performance and imagine stating that they’re not used in tournaments because they’re weak instead of because their doctrines are bad.

I’d be playing as seed 28 in ML3 had I signed up and I wouldn’t be playing Pfusiliers if I played OKW not because they’re not the monster unit that they are but because their doctrines are far inferior to the Asiamint Spec Ops build vs usf and soviets, while JLIs are the only choice vs UKF.
19 Oct 2020, 18:29 PM
#153
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Imagine implying a 6man squad with 3 G43s with 80% moving accuracy and a lethal grenade, no sidetech for nade or snare, is between 1 and 2 BAR riflemen in performance and imagine stating that they’re not used in tournaments because they’re weak instead of because their doctrines are bad.

I’d be playing as seed 28 in ML3 had I signed up and I wouldn’t be playing Pfusiliers if I played OKW not because they’re not the monster unit that they are but because their doctrines are far inferior to the Asiamint Spec Ops build vs usf and soviets, while JLIs are the only choice vs UKF.

Since the K98 has bad accuracy on move the total moving accuracy of the squad is not that great and inline with other infatry with "carbine" rifles like Penals.
19 Oct 2020, 18:33 PM
#154
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 18:29 PMVipper

Since the K98 has bad accuracy on move the total moving accuracy of the squad is not that great and inline with other infatry with "carbine" rifles like Penals.


There's no "LIKE" penals. Penals are in a league of their own on the move, noone comes close. The downside is they suck in all other scenarios, no cover, bad RA, etc.

3 Kar98s don't matter, once you get a blob of 2-3 g43 fusiliers going you can get some crazy wipes, especially with their new buffed grenades. Once you get on retreat paths with them you can get wipe after wipe. They're better than Riflemen in that regard, especially with no need to sidetech for a nade and less muni investment.
19 Oct 2020, 18:36 PM
#155
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



There's no "LIKE" penals. Penals are in a league of their own on the move, noone comes close. The downside is they suck in all other scenarios, no cover, bad RA, etc.

3 Kar98s don't matter, once you get a blob of 2-3 g43 fusiliers going you can get some crazy wipes, especially with their new buffed grenades. Once you get on retreat paths with them you can get wipe after wipe. They're better than Riflemen in that regard, especially with no need to sidetech for a nade and less muni investment.

In other words it ok for Penal to have better moving accuracy but bad to PF to spend 80 munition to get good moving accuracy.

And if one invest 885 manpower and 240 mu on infatry he might get some wipes by minute 7-8?

In sort Penals good and PF bad.
19 Oct 2020, 18:41 PM
#156
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783


I have already mentioned this bonus numerous times. It still doesn't support your point. Weapon upgrades don't boost other weapons in the squad, they replace some of them with better ones. It's still a completely different mechanic


Again I'm not sure what is up with this arbitrary distinction. In pretty much any rts with upgrades (think starcraft, age of empires, homeworld etc.) Weapon upgrades do not need to swap out the weapon model itself for it to be considered a weapon upgrade. Sure the 7man upgrade isn't "exclusively" a weapon upgrade but it does upgrade the squads weapons.


All ranges *when in cover* But this point also makes no sense at all, if it didn't increase squad size the upgrade wouldn't exist because getting the 7th man is literally the whole point


I simply disagree with this. The point of the upgrade was to help conscripts scale better(not to make it easier to get hit by aoe weapons). Having an additional model is not necessary for this. If the upgrade had instead of increasing the model count to 7, simply increased the flat DPS by 50% it would still serve the same purpose and still be used in the same way.
Look at what else the upgrade does- Increase veterency gain? Reduce reinforce cost? Improve the squad damage(when in cover)? This upgrade was for scaling. And then 7th man was just one possible route to help with it.
19 Oct 2020, 19:14 PM
#157
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 18:41 PMSerrith

Again I'm not sure what is up with this arbitrary distinction.

I have already told you it's literally not relevant to the discussion. We just disagree over terminology. Who cares

Do you or do you not think the 7 man upgrade is fine? Or does it need changes? That's really all that matters here, and it's still not clear what you think

When you said it was unlike other weapon upgrades, to me that meant you thought it needed to be brought in line with those upgrades. My entire point is that it's unlike those upgrades by design, in both effects and limitations

What is your argument? Mine is that upgrade is completely fine. If you agree with this, than our discussion is over. Once again, I do not care what you call the upgrade if you think it's fine

19 Oct 2020, 19:39 PM
#158
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783


....


For the timing the upgrade is fine, but the timing creates an awkward gap between power spikes. I would rather it be slightly less potent but arrive earlier. Remove the cooldown bonus for example, but allow it to be purchased once tier 3 is built without needing the HQ upgrade.
19 Oct 2020, 19:40 PM
#159
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 18:36 PMVipper

In other words it ok for Penal to have better moving accuracy but bad to PF to spend 80 munition to get good moving accuracy.

And if one invest 885 manpower and 240 mu on infatry he might get some wipes by minute 7-8?

In sort Penals good and PF bad.

Penals cost 460mp for their first one, fussies get close to 2 squads for that price. Map control helps offset the munitions cost.

I think penals should follow a similar design as fussie but fussies are overperforming being able to match enemy map control and then match them in combat or exceed their combat potential.

With fussies you basicly get the pros of penals without the cons.
19 Oct 2020, 19:48 PM
#160
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2020, 16:25 PMSerrith


7 man upgrade also reduces the cooldown of the conscript mosins by 30% when in cover(~15-20% dps increase at all ranges). Even if the 7man upgrade didn't increase the squad size, it would STILL be a damage upgrade at all ranges.
Bolster does not improve the stock weapons at all.


Not sure where you got those numbers of.

I might had got something wrong, but by replacing values on an old spreadsheet (even if the DPS values are outdated) the cooldown DPS bonus increase goes from around 4.5% (near) to 13.5% (far).

Due to how DPS is calculated, the only values which translates directly to raw DMG increase in a 1:1 scale are damage and accuracy. Cooldown followed up by reload, have the worst bonus to DPS ratios.
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