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Sander's personal balance changes

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24 Oct 2020, 13:22 PM
#361
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Oct 2020, 14:56 PMPip
As someone else has said, I would personally rather any halftrack comes as-is, and without an infantry squad inside it. I'd rather have the option to build whatever infantry/the HT separately, rather than have to get both when I only want the HT.

Ciuld always have the HT buildable in the HQ as well, but I think it would be neat being able to have access to the unique upgraded pgrens and grens in other commanders, but limited access.
24 Oct 2020, 13:38 PM
#362
avatar of flyingpancake

Posts: 186 | Subs: 1


Ciuld always have the HT buildable in the HQ as well, but I think it would be neat being able to have access to the unique upgraded pgrens and grens in other commanders, but limited access.

I like this idea, more strategic options make the game more fun.
24 Oct 2020, 15:06 PM
#364
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 856 | Subs: 2

Assgrens replacing Riegel mines in "Storm" doc would also be a nice move. Assgrens+ Camo+offmap smoke - oh yeah, baby!
24 Oct 2020, 17:58 PM
#365
avatar of flyingpancake

Posts: 186 | Subs: 1


I like this idea, more strategic options make the game more fun.

I would like to extend this idea in reverse to Soviet Lend Lease Tactics.
Allow the Assault Guards to be build from HQ after tier 3 has been build.
25 Oct 2020, 06:56 AM
#366
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Oct 2020, 15:06 PMSmartie
Assgrens replacing Riegel mines in "Storm" doc would also be a nice move. Assgrens+ Camo+offmap smoke - oh yeah, baby!


But.. I like riegel mines.
25 Oct 2020, 07:06 AM
#367
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2115 | Subs: 1



But.. I like riegel mines.


i think the same when a freshly called in ISU hits my only riegel mine (true story)
25 Oct 2020, 08:25 AM
#368
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351





This is a great idea. Should be implemented. I understand the point of it possibly rising some concerns but imo it is far from revolutionary. Just a good, logical and needed change. Especially because of many relatively new commanders and abilities in USF/UKF rooster.
25 Oct 2020, 08:41 AM
#369
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

Think unit like "support pioneers", "repair and recovery truck", "vehicle crew" (from all units MOD) are all good candidates for German mechanized doctrine
25 Oct 2020, 08:53 AM
#370
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1



Yeah, I agree the LeFH doesn't fit the doctrine. This was actually my original commander rework proposal in the thread you linked:



With Fire and Advance being a timed ability that functions like Spotting Scopes with some additional benefits.

But if we are to get another patch, the changes should remain small, so everyone can agree upon them. Lots of small and safe changes is better than more drastic changes that would have more impact on balance and would thus require more testing and be fewer in number.

I don't think the LeFH fits the Storm Doctrine either, but that's the only other LeFH doctrine besides German Mechanized that's actually useful. If the LeFH got replaced on both doctrines because they're unthematic, you'd be softremoving the LeFH from Ostheer as a whole.

So that's why I only replaced 1 ability per commander. If it's ever within the scope of a future patch, 2 or even 3 ability replacements would be cool though.


Arty fits in Storm doctrine. All armies used to use arty in advance of their assaults for softening up the enemy. It's more the riegel and cammo abilities that don't really fit in there. However, since Ostheer already has a bunch of attack orientated doctrines, I think Storm is fine. If it needs any change, a name change is probably the best route.
25 Oct 2020, 13:06 PM
#371
avatar of Letzte Bataillon

Posts: 195



Arty fits in Storm doctrine. All armies used to use arty in advance of their assaults for softening up the enemy.


This was my thought as well reading the comments around this doctrine.



Moreover, this is the only other doctrine that offers Riegels. There may be some interesting synergy there too: Trap enemy armor with Riegel anti-tank mines and destroy it with a LEFH barrage or Stuka Dive Bomb while they're immobilized. Not that practical compared to alternatives, but that's what I get from Relic's design of it.
26 Oct 2020, 18:00 PM
#372
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

https://clips.twitch.tv/VibrantComfortableTildeMcaT

All is good, a 10 fuel nerf will nerf Osttruppen enough. /s
27 Oct 2020, 04:35 AM
#373
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449


The PPSH upgrade is worse compared to the SVT upgrade that cost the same muni, and worse compared to the 7 man upgrade that cost 10 muni less. If these 2 upgrades are balanced in you opinion (they are in mine) then the PPSH upgrade is underperforming or too expensive for what it does.

Problem is, Cons can sprint. How do they compare versus AssGrens? If giving Cons 6 PPSHs does more damage than AssGrens, then I think it would be too much. The question is if we should compare them to 5 man AssGrens or 6 man AssGrens.

I will say I like the idea of giving them 6 PPSHs. I hate it when SMG squads don't all have the same weapon.
Pip
27 Oct 2020, 18:34 PM
#374
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2020, 04:35 AMSpoof

Problem is, Cons can sprint. How do they compare versus AssGrens? If giving Cons 6 PPSHs does more damage than AssGrens, then I think it would be too much. The question is if we should compare them to 5 man AssGrens or 6 man AssGrens.

I will say I like the idea of giving them 6 PPSHs. I hate it when SMG squads don't all have the same weapon.


There's no justifiable reason PPSH cons should be able to compete with Assgrens in terms of Damage, honestly. Cons would retain their snare, and their Sandbags, and their merge.

A better solution is to allow Soviets to call in Frontoviki squads, rather than make the PPSH itself a stronger upgrade. That, or allow it to be combined with Seven Man. Three PPSH already let cons beat non-assault squads when they close in, while not leaving them entirely defenceless at range.
27 Oct 2020, 18:56 PM
#375
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2020, 18:34 PMPip


There's no justifiable reason PPSH cons should be able to compete with Assgrens in terms of Damage, honestly. Cons would retain their snare, and their Sandbags, and their merge.

A better solution is to allow Soviets to call in Frontoviki squads, rather than make the PPSH itself a stronger upgrade. That, or allow it to be combined with Seven Man. Three PPSH already let cons beat non-assault squads when they close in, while not leaving them entirely defenceless at range.


ehh when comparing cons PPSH to MP40 volks id say conscripts should most definitely get at least 4-5x ppsh... likewise im fine if cons PPSH competed against assgrens since its a 60 muni upgrade vs a 40 mp pricetag... plus grenade assault is superior to molly and doesnt require tech...
27 Oct 2020, 19:32 PM
#376
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2020, 18:56 PMgbem


ehh when comparing cons PPSH to MP40 volks id say conscripts should most definitely get at least 4-5x ppsh... likewise im fine if cons PPSH competed against assgrens since its a 60 muni upgrade vs a 40 mp pricetag... plus grenade assault is superior to molly and doesnt require tech...

Assault grenades require tech since they are not available until BP1 is unlocked.

Having that said and since imo PPsh and mosin do not mix well giving 6 PPsh ( and making any changes necessary to weapon) and taking up a weapon slot would an improvement. Removing hit the ground would also be an improvement.
27 Oct 2020, 19:32 PM
#377
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2020, 18:56 PMgbem

plus grenade assault is superior to molly and doesnt require tech...

This is wrong. Yes, it is not a sidetech, and as an Ostheer player you have to tech up to Battlephase 1 anyway, but that's by the design of the faction. Assgrens also can't snare.

Conscripts with PPSHs also should not be able to out-DPS MP40 Volks because Volks cost more and are still not as versatile (although they do get a smoke grenade). More importantly however, MP40 Volks can't sprint. Cons with PPSHs that do more damage than dedicated MP40 squads AND can sprint would be a terrible idea.
27 Oct 2020, 20:44 PM
#378
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2020, 19:32 PMSpoof

This is wrong. Yes, it is not a sidetech, and as an Ostheer player you have to tech up to Battlephase 1 anyway, but that's by the design of the faction. Assgrens also can't snare.

Conscripts with PPSHs also should not be able to out-DPS MP40 Volks because Volks cost more and are still not as versatile (although they do get a smoke grenade). More importantly however, MP40 Volks can't sprint. Cons with PPSHs that do more damage than dedicated MP40 squads AND can sprint would be a terrible idea.

Volks cost more upfront but that's all you pay for them. Cons cost less upfront because they need an extra 205mp and 20 fuel to fully kit out.
Whats more, the Mp40 upgrade grants mp40s, smoke nades, normal nades and a target size reduction while the ppsh upgrade gives only ppshs (although the slot also gives hit the dirt to all cons, upgrade not required) so if the ppsh upgrade brought more dps it wouldn't really be an issue in the interbalance because the Mp40 upgrade gives more than just dps.
27 Oct 2020, 20:49 PM
#379
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449


Volks cost more upfront but that's all you pay for them. Cons cost less upfront because they need an extra 205mp and 20 fuel to fully kit out.
Whats more, the Mp40 upgrade grants mp40s, smoke nades, normal nades and a target size reduction while the ppsh upgrade gives only ppshs (although the slot also gives hit the dirt to all cons, upgrade not required) so if the ppsh upgrade brought more dps it wouldn't really be an issue in the interbalance because the Mp40 upgrade gives more than just dps.

Ok, alright then. Just make sure the 6x PPSH DPS isn't insane (I don't know what the DPS of the Conscript PPSH is, but it feels pretty similar to the Shock PPSH) because the last thing I want are 6 man squads with more DPS than AssGrens sprinting around and deleting squads the second you see them.
27 Oct 2020, 21:05 PM
#380
avatar of flyingpancake

Posts: 186 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Oct 2020, 20:49 PMSpoof

Ok, alright then. Just make sure the 6x PPSH DPS isn't insane (I don't know what the DPS of the Conscript PPSH is, but it feels pretty similar to the Shock PPSH) because the last thing I want are 6 man squads with more DPS than AssGrens sprinting around and deleting squads the second you see them.


Considering the PPSH don't pop until 2CP unlike the Assault Grenadiers who are there from the start i think that comparing them is not entirely fair to either unit. Around 2CP a sprinting SMG squad is less likely to cause problems then from CP0. I think the best comparison of the PPSH Cons is the MP40 Volks in terms of use and what they should be in terms of power. I think tweaking the DPS and giving the Cons 6x PPSH is the best solution like you say, and if that fails for what ever reason it should be made cheaper (45muni) due to the other upgrades i already said in my older post.

In my opinion the Assault Grenadiers are also lacking. They don't have all the tools and versatility of MP40 Volks but don't have the power to compensate either and it seems to me that they become just absolutely anemic after midgame due to their low dps.
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