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russian armor

Grens changes

28 Jun 2020, 23:24 PM
#1
avatar of DerKuhlmann

Posts: 317

Due to the popularity of German infantry doctrine, shows us that grens are too weak to use without 5 man upgrade and it´s benefits.

I suggest following


Mg42 close dps when upgraded buffed and long range nerfed

Squad hitpoints when upgraded with mg42 increased.
29 Jun 2020, 01:41 AM
#2
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 353

I think the biggest issue is the base reinforce cost being 30 mp and the LMG while strong, is 60 muni for a faction that has to pay muni for healing and tellers to help deal with light vehicles. Maybe slightly reducing the LMG's cost to 50 muni or making the starting reinforce cost 28 but removing the reduction you get with Tier 4 could prevent 5-man Grens from being even more powerful.
29 Jun 2020, 02:08 AM
#3
avatar of NorthFireZ

Posts: 195

Op: Due to the over powered nature of 5 man grens, I also want to buff Grens for no reason.
29 Jun 2020, 06:57 AM
#4
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15455 | Subs: 7

OR maybe doctrine is too strong, as it was in the past with 100% of cases like that.

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 01:41 AMClarity
I think the biggest issue is the base reinforce cost being 30 mp and the LMG while strong, is 60 muni for a faction that has to pay muni for healing and tellers to help deal with light vehicles. Maybe slightly reducing the LMG's cost to 50 muni or making the starting reinforce cost 28 but removing the reduction you get with Tier 4 could prevent 5-man Grens from being even more powerful.


Muni is not an argument.
Every other faction spends more.
29 Jun 2020, 07:48 AM
#5
avatar of Sumi

Posts: 80

Another wehraboo who wants Allied nerfs and Axis buffs this is surprisingly new.
29 Jun 2020, 07:52 AM
#6
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 353

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 06:57 AMKatitof
OR maybe doctrine is too strong, as it was in the past with 100% of cases like that.



Muni is not an argument.
Every other faction spends more.

Yeah and every other faction has better mainline infantry, why do you think people are literally skipping Tier 1 constantly if they aren't playing 5 man Grens? You can get Double weapon upgrades as UKF and USF, they don't have to get them immediately but they can get them over the course of a game to scale. They also don't have light vehicles that can duel allied lights unless you build multiple of them, so they rely on Pak, Faust, and Teller play and when you have to spend muni to get healing and lay tellers so you can actually deal with a light vehicle you don't have the muni to spend on LMG's so your Grens are getting face-rolled by Rifles w/ 1 Bar and 5-man Tommies. Also don't forget USF gets free officer squads with tech. Soviets its not as much of an issue but early SVT's can be brutal to deal with sometimes but Cons are balanced as they are, with my only complaint being how late 7-man comes sometimes even though its a really strong upgrade that you don't have to pick a commander to get. These aren't big buffs I am suggesting but just something to open up early game strategy a bit so it isn't so 5-man Gren/Ostruppen/Ass Gren heavy.
29 Jun 2020, 07:55 AM
#7
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 441

Second mg 42 after last tech
5 man gren squads rifle cooldown to grens to basic 4 man grens.

Pretty unrealustic choices i know, but thats what i think would be intresting change.
29 Jun 2020, 08:01 AM
#8
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15455 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 07:52 AMClarity

Yeah and every other faction has better mainline infantry

What do you expect? Wehr has CHEAPEST mainline inf, even cons require much greater investment for their full basic utility.
And wehr has best and earliest support weapons and units.
If you want to play with mainline inf spam, don't play wehr or use this exact doctrine.
29 Jun 2020, 08:02 AM
#9
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 897

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 07:52 AMClarity

Yeah and every other faction has better mainline infantry, why do you think people are literally skipping Tier 1 constantly if they aren't playing 5 man Grens? You can get Double weapon upgrades as UKF and USF, they don't have to get them immediately but they can get them over the course of a game to scale. They also don't have light vehicles that can duel allied lights unless you build multiple of them, so they rely on Pak, Faust, and Teller play and when you have to spend muni to get healing and lay tellers so you can actually deal with a light vehicle you don't have the muni to spend on LMG's so your Grens are getting face-rolled by Rifles w/ 1 Bar and 5-man Tommies. Also don't forget USF gets free officer squads with tech. Soviets its not as much of an issue but early SVT's can be brutal to deal with sometimes but Cons are balanced as they are, with my only complaints being how late 7-man comes sometimes even though its a really strong upgrade that you don't have to pick a commander to get.


5 man Grens with LMG, riflenade and faust? No. This will destroy ballance of all factions.
Why you think 7 cons cannot have any weapon/utility upgrade?
29 Jun 2020, 08:08 AM
#10
avatar of A table

Posts: 200

Mg42 close dps when upgraded buffed and long range nerfed


Nerfing long range on a unit that is specifically meant to be used at long range? Bad suggestion imo.

Squad hitpoints when upgraded with mg42 increased.


Vet 3 already has that. No reason for that to be in an upgrade.
29 Jun 2020, 08:10 AM
#11
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1082

You don't need to rely on grens. Mg42 is beast. Sniper is beast. PGs are beasts.

Grens just support with very good grenades and snares. Just don't let them take too much damage, the other harder hitting units should be sheilding them.
29 Jun 2020, 08:22 AM
#12
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 353

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 08:02 AMAradan


5 man Grens with LMG, riflenade and faust? No. This will destroy ballance of all factions.
Why you think 7 cons cannot have any weapon/utility upgrade?

When did I ever say that? PepegaClap
29 Jun 2020, 08:32 AM
#13
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 814

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 08:01 AMKatitof

What do you expect? Wehr has CHEAPEST mainline inf, even cons require much greater investment for their full basic utility.
And wehr has best and earliest support weapons and units.
If you want to play with mainline inf spam, don't play wehr or use this exact doctrine.


Actually you're wrong

You need to build T1 so this is factored into squad core cost, soviets can build cons without a tech structure so they are the cheapest
29 Jun 2020, 09:02 AM
#14
avatar of James Hale

Posts: 573

Due to the popularity of German infantry doctrine, shows us that grens are too weak to use without 5 man upgrade and it´s benefits.

Consider your opening statement.

What is the most likely scenario; Grens are too weak to use without the 5-man upgrade, or they're simply too strong with it?

If the first case, then the logical conclusion is to make Grens 5-man squads by default - or at least make that a default option for them. However, such a design change would have huge balance implications across the board, and I think is simply undesirable anyway.
29 Jun 2020, 09:22 AM
#15
avatar of Tetranet

Posts: 7

I would like to finally see them be able to build sandbags.

Grenadiers are fragile, long range infantry and their upgrade does not fire on the move. They are the mainline infantry unit that needs sandbags most of all yet they have to rely on the Pioneers to build for them.


29 Jun 2020, 09:34 AM
#16
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15455 | Subs: 7

I would like to finally see them be able to build sandbags.

Grenadiers are fragile, long range infantry and their upgrade does not fire on the move. They are the mainline infantry unit that needs sandbags most of all yet they have to rely on the Pioneers to build for them.



If new balance patch will come to life, we will have LESS sandbags, not more.
Cons are the only mainline inf that deserves to have them.
29 Jun 2020, 09:43 AM
#17
avatar of Tetranet

Posts: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 09:34 AMKatitof

If new balance patch will come to life, we will have LESS sandbags, not more.
Cons are the only mainline inf that deserves to have them.




Less spam because generally there are only 1-2 engineer units around and they're needed for other roles too, so you'd only be able to build sandbags in vital places rather than place them everywhere your 3-4 mainline infantry squads go.

It was a mistake from Relic to add sandbags to mainline infantry (Cons could've gotten away with it). However currently sandbags on mainlines are a big part of their power level and tinkering with that would cause ripple effects that would probably require quite significant adjustments to fix, so that's not really something that could be done at this point.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/105613/sandbags/post/823052


I doubt it going by Sander93's post on that thread.
29 Jun 2020, 09:48 AM
#18
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15455 | Subs: 7




https://www.coh2.org/topic/105613/sandbags/post/823052


I doubt it going by Sander93's post on that thread.

You should perhaps take a look at miragefla stream vods form this friday, discussing and asking opinions on delaying sandbags.
29 Jun 2020, 10:13 AM
#19
avatar of Bryan

Posts: 412

I think Grens are likely fine but four model squads is very unforgiving as they squads can get wiped due to clumping from mines and AOE weapons. Hence why a lot of players are going Ostruppen as a frontline screen into PGrens and Scout Car who deal the damage as it is more forgiving and easier to play.

Also Grens require the T0 building that costs a enough to matter in early game. Most players aren't regularly using Sniper/Mortar.

If I do go Grens - I use combined arms of MG42, Grens, Sniper and then T1 stuff like Scout Car/Pgren/Pak 40. It is not an easy style to play in my opinion as one mistake can hamstring you badly.
29 Jun 2020, 10:21 AM
#20
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15455 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2020, 10:13 AMBryan
I think Grens are likely fine but four model squads is very unforgiving as they squads can get wiped due to clumping from mines and AOE weapons. Hence why a lot of players are going Ostruppen as a frontline screen into PGrens and Scout Car who deal the damage as it is more forgiving and easier to play.

Mines have limit of models they can affect, ironically the only mine that does not have that is ost s-mines.
AoE weapons will fuck up all squads, ost is not exception here. Build ost mortar and see how long allied weapon teams will last.
People try to play ost as it was aggressive, pace dictating faction - its not, never was, never will be, ost was and will always be a reactive faction with most tools to respond to anything, but again and again and again, grens were not and will not be a self sufficient infantry, because they are cheapest mainline with best support behind them.

Also Grens require the T0 building that costs a enough to matter in early game.

Ost starts with bonus manpower. Cost of T1 is completely irrelevant.

Most players aren't regularly using Sniper/Mortar.

Maybe that's the problem?
People stubbornly play ost like it was OKW or soviets, expecting cheapest mainline to stand up to much more expensive squads and then do surprised pikachu face when it does not work.

If I do go Grens - I use combined arms of MG42, Grens, Sniper and then T1 stuff like Scout Car/Pgren/Pak 40. It is not an easy style to play in my opinion as one mistake can hamstring you badly.

That's intended playstyle of the faction, ost was NEVER supposed to have self sufficient mainline inf.
The doctrine kind of allows that, but it will never be a stock option.
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