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UTT and the 2v2 meta - already stale?

2 Jun 2020, 19:53 PM
#1
avatar of Colonel0tto
Donator 11

Posts: 134

Here's a quick bit of analysis of the finals games of the Ultimate Team Tournament Qualifying Rounds 1 and 2.

Allied Team Composition: Brits and Soviets

The end of heavy tank meta and and the armour nerfs to Jacksons have made USF an unfavourable option for Allied 2v2 teams, who no long rely on the Jackson's potent ranged AT. The significant buffs and changes to Brits have made them a much more valuable powerful 2v2 faction. A Soviet teammate can make up for Brits' earlygame weaknesses very well, and can complement in the lategame with spammable inf, powerful mediums and rocket artillery. As a result, Allied teams are playing Brit/Soviet every single game.

The Mortar Pit's Reign of Terror

In the finals of the UTT qualifying rounds, the Allied teams won 14/19 games. The Brit teammate built a mortar pit in all 14 victorious games. The Allies lost every game in which the Brit player did not build a mortar pit (3), and only lost the other two games due to spectacular blunders in which the Axis were able to needlessly pick up multiple vehicle kills. Most incredibly, of all the 16 games in which the mortar pit was built, it was only destroyed once - in the Grand Finals of Round 2, when the axis had already taken the entire map and won the game.


Lack of Axis Adaptation

Disappointingly, even after games in which they had destroyed their opponents using a mortar pit and Royal Artillery Commander cheese, Axis teams displayed no ability to deal with this strategy. Most teams opted for a fast Walking Stuka, but these had no effect on the mortar pits. The one LEIG that was built was rapidly decrewed by some fortunate Sexton shots. Most Axis teams opted instead to try to ignore the pit, taking significant bleed and giving up control of center VP. This was not a recipe for success.


Hopes for Finals

I'm eager to see Axis teams find viable strategies and timings to dislodge Brit mortar pits before Perimeter Overwatch can be used to shut down their assaults. Some combination of smoke, panzershreks and indirect fire will probably be necessary here. If the current Allied team meta proves insurmountable, I'm concerned that the finals games will be much less exciting than we as a community are hoping for.


Please share your thoughts and suggestions! - How should Axis teams deal with the Brit/Soviet composition, and in particular the mortar pit?
2 Jun 2020, 20:00 PM
#2
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2802

I find Puma to be a fantastic counter to emplacements. Self spotting and 60 range, can poke the pit and retreat.

USF I feel like it's pretty useless in 2v2 if you don't go CalliOP and even if you do their lack of ranged DPS in the wide open 2v2 maps of the tournament is a pretty big issue vs LMG blobs and JLI/Obers.

A possible option would be for teams could try double Ost with one going assgrens/pgrens with strat reserves, which has pio satchels that are seriously potent. I do recall Bao playing strategic reserves in 2v2.

I do hope the 2v2 ISU vs Elephant 24/7 meta is addressed next patch.
2 Jun 2020, 20:16 PM
#3
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2426 | Subs: 5

On the topic of the mortar pit it should be noted that the maps that were played most (Wolfheze, Elst and Arnhem Country) all have positions on the Allied side from which a mortar pit can cover 1-2 VPs with near impunity. As opposed to maps like Rails and Metal or Fields of Winnekendonk. It also surprised me to see even the best teams not even attempting to properly counter them (ISGs, flame grenades, etc.) and instead either tried to ignore them or used ineffective Stuka barrages.

Not seeing USF too much isn't very surprising, even though the faction is really good at the moment it simply isn't as reliable as UKF. And USF has always been a bit worse at 2v2. And Soviets are a no brainer pick because of their nondoc rocket artillery.

Wolfheze seems like a pretty bad map in its current state, with a huge amount of clutter (platforms, train carts and buildings) blocking proper armor movement in the center (which makes pushes and flanks really hard if not impossible because they're either predictable or get bogged down easily), effectively dividing the map mostly into two separate fights, and allowing (mostly Allied) artillery to easily target the (Axis) base sector. I honestly hope this map won't be used in the finals weekend.

One thing I was a bit disappointed in was the lack of Axis counterplay to Perimeter Overwatch (even if it's overperforming) by using some of the faster capping abilities (to neutralize territory quicker and thus mostly nullifying PO in that area), even when a commander that has such an ability (German Infantry) was used quite frequently.
2 Jun 2020, 20:16 PM
#4
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8561 | Subs: 1

I find Puma to be a fantastic counter to emplacements. Self spotting and 60 range, can poke the pit and retreat.

USF I feel like it's pretty useless in 2v2 if you don't go CalliOP and even if you do their lack of ranged DPS in the wide open 2v2 maps of the tournament is a pretty big issue vs LMG blobs and JLI/Obers.

A possible option would be for teams could try double Ost with one going assgrens/pgrens with strat reserves, which has pio satchels that are seriously potent. I do recall Bao playing strategic reserves in 2v2.

I do hope the 2v2 ISU vs Elephant 24/7 meta is addressed next patch.

Pumas's sight and range is 50 not 60
2 Jun 2020, 20:25 PM
#5
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2802

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2020, 20:16 PMVipper

Pumas's sight and range is 50 not 60


Yeah I know, and? Never said it's spotting range is 60, but it can spot for itself, 10 range difference isn't much.
2 Jun 2020, 20:37 PM
#6
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 899

On the topic of the mortar pit it should be noted that the maps that were played most (Wolfheze, Elst and Arnhem Country) all have positions on the Allied side from which a mortar pit can cover 1-2 VPs with near impunity. As opposed to maps like Rails and Metal or Fields of Winnekendonk. It also surprised me to see even the best teams not even attempting to properly counter them (ISGs, flame grenades, etc.) and instead either tried to ignore them or used ineffective Stuka barrages.


We're (essentially) back at the pre-nerf brace problem. While the mortar pit is counter-able, the amount of effort and resources required is massively disproportionate, and that over-investment leaves axis open to attacks from other units. This is especially problematic on the maps you mentioned, as it means investing heavily into indirect fire units, which aren't effective against mobile infantry or tanks, which make up most of the Allies armies.

A mortar pit is 400mp and 8 pop.

As you pointed out, the Stuka is ineffective due to brace preventing most damage, and even without brace, 2 direct hits (2 rockets) won't destroy it. As a result, OKW is forced into a sub-optimal med-truck play, in addition to spending at least 540mp on two LeiGs (one won't counter it). This puts OKW at an incredibly large disadvantage mid-game, as they'll have nothing other than Raks to counter the inevitable light vehicles.

OST is in a similar situation, where they need to either micro multiple mortars (520mp), or vet them up to unlock counter-barrage (again, likely 520mp). The only other options are waiting until late-game, or investing in a mortar half-track (STUG-E is too late, and can be blocked by shot-blockers, not to mention its shorter range); however, MHTs are only available on the "Festung Support Doctrine" (which is terrible) and the "Spearhead Doctrine", which means you're locked into one doctrine every game.

Basically, for 400mp and 8 pop, UKF gets both an incredibly resilient "MP Bleed" machine (that requires no micro) as well as a massive sink for Axis to 'dump' resources in to in an attempt to stop it.


2 Jun 2020, 20:44 PM
#7
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15465 | Subs: 7

I like how mortar pit went from useless popcap waste to most op unit in game without any kind of change exclusively because it was used in tournament on very tight maps where most of them are not even in automatch.
2 Jun 2020, 20:45 PM
#8
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2802

I like how mortar pit went from useless popcap waste to most op unit in game without any kind of change exclusively because it was used in tournament on very tight maps where most of them are not even in automatch.


Almost as if the people who think it's OP are absolutely clueless.
2 Jun 2020, 20:50 PM
#9
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15465 | Subs: 7



Almost as if the people who think it's OP are absolutely clueless.

Well, arguments about emplacements being op usually come from players who are bouncing off for 30 minutes of bofors and schwerer without a clue on how to deal with them.
2 Jun 2020, 20:52 PM
#10
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 1803 | Subs: 1

yes, that 's what a brit buff leads to

who could've known...
2 Jun 2020, 20:52 PM
#11
avatar of Colonel0tto
Donator 11

Posts: 134


Well, arguments about emplacements being op usually come from players who are bouncing off for 30 minutes of bofors and schwerer without a clue on how to deal with them.


Just to clarify, I'm not claiming the Mortar Pit is OP. I think its strength in these tournament games is likely due to failure of Axis teams to adapt proper counter strategies. I hope my post was structured in a way that made this clear!
2 Jun 2020, 20:56 PM
#12
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15465 | Subs: 7



Just to clarify, I'm not claiming the Mortar Pit is OP. I think its strength in these tournament games is likely due to failure of Axis teams to adapt proper counter strategies. I hope my post was structured in a way that made this clear!

I know, but your wording will inevitably be interpreted as such in 1 hour tops.
2 Jun 2020, 20:57 PM
#13
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 899

I like how mortar pit went from useless popcap waste to most op unit in game without any kind of change exclusively because it was used in tournament on very tight maps where most of them are not even in automatch.


Almost as if the people who think it's OP are absolutely clueless.


This happens in a lot of games, and fairly often. While the map choice for UUT2 is interesting, changes to surrounding units (or other gameplay factors) can also dramatically influence gameplay choices. A great example of this is CSGO's "AUG", where it went from essentially unused to completely dominant in competitive play despite almost zero changes (a 4% price drop).



Essentially, player perception and "meta discoveries" (i.e. learning new tricks) can cause changes in gameplay despite their being no stat changes. It's happened in CoH before; vCoH pios went from "basically useless" to "unstoppable insanity" when one player ('Mags' iirc) figured out Piospam - but there were no stat changes that caused this.
2 Jun 2020, 21:25 PM
#14
avatar of Colonel0tto
Donator 11

Posts: 134



This happens in a lot of games, and fairly often. While the map choice for UUT2 is interesting, changes to surrounding units (or other gameplay factors) can also dramatically influence gameplay choices. A great example of this is CSGO's "AUG", where it went from essentially unused to completely dominant in competitive play despite almost zero changes (a 4% price drop).



I think this is basically what happened. The heavy tank changes brought an end to heavy meta, which in turn reduced the importance of early aggression since teams are no longer racing for their heavies. The heavy tank commanders which tend to support aggressive playstyles (assault grens, shock troopers etc) are no longer being picked up. The numerous changes to other Brit units mean they are a better faction on the whole and much less vulnerable to aggressive openers. So overall there's more space and time for a mortar pit position to be established safely.

2 Jun 2020, 21:52 PM
#15
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2802

So the Mortar pit is OP because the AUG in CS:GO became OP.

Quality
3 Jun 2020, 08:32 AM
#17
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 817

How about replacing the mortar pit with a normal mortar?
3 Jun 2020, 08:36 AM
#18
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15465 | Subs: 7

How about replacing the mortar pit with a normal mortar?

Equally likely as replacing OKW KT with ostwind.
3 Jun 2020, 08:47 AM
#19
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8561 | Subs: 1



Yeah I know, and?

If you knew was it a typo or you deliberately wrote the wrong stats?


Never said it's spotting range is 60, but it can spot for itself, 10 range difference isn't much.

If Puma had range 60 it would technically also need range 60 to selfspot, it has 50 range and 50 sight so it can selfspot.

If you do not a see a difference between saying "Puma has range 60" and "Puma has range 50" I suggest you stop providing stats. Providing stat is only helpful if one provides the correct ones.

As for how important 10 range differences is if Puma had a range 40 it would be far less effective.
3 Jun 2020, 11:21 AM
#20
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 128

Nobody plays usf simply cause most of the maps arent good for usf, elst is the only decent usf map and eindhoven is playable but players want to train a faction they can play on every map.

Mortar pit reign of terror should be no surprise, it always has been a good unit. All you need is someone to guard it and a decent spot for it.
And you "balance experts" think we tourney players havent thought of countering it??? pls be more disrespectfull, thanks. if you can name me one way to counter it that actually is viable pls pm me. You need a good team push on the mortar pit which, let me tell you, is not that easy against good players
Leigs dont work, dont even try

PO gonna be banned so no need to worry about that

Ive been saiyng "Axis OP" for months now, maybe people start to understand why
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