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russian armor

Why must the mainline USF infantry cost so much?

20 May 2020, 07:23 AM
#21
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



Vet 0 and Vet 1 (no defensive bonuses)
Grens: 4x80/0.91 = 351.65 ehp
Rifles: 5x80/0.97 = 412.37 ehp

Rifles have 17.26% more ehp


Rifles Vet 2 (-23% RA): 5x80/(0.97/1.23) = 507.22 ehp
Grens Vet 2: same as vet 1, since there's no defensive bonuses = 351.65 ehp

Rifles have 44.2% more ehp


Rifles Vet 3 (-23% and -15% RA): 5x80/((0.97/1.23)/1.15) = 583.3 ehp
Grens vet 3 (-20% DR): 4x80/0.91x1.2 = 421.98 ehp

Rifles have 38.23% more ehp

I meant model vs model, not squad vs squad.
20 May 2020, 10:13 AM
#22
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2020, 07:23 AMKatitof

I meant model vs model, not squad vs squad.
if X model just dived did the number of squad member
20 May 2020, 16:06 PM
#23
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 959

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2020, 07:23 AMKatitof

I meant model vs model, not squad vs squad.


It certainly didn't come across that way. Regardless;

Grens: 4x80/0.91 = 351.65 ehp / 4 = 87.91 ehp per model
Rifles: 5x80/0.97 = 412.37 ehp / 5 = 82.47 ehp per model

Rifles have 17.26% more ehp, Gren models have 6.6% more ehp


Rifles Vet 2 (-23% RA): 5x80/(0.97/1.23) = 507.22 ehp / 5 = 101.44 ehp per model
Grens Vet 2: same as vet 1, since there's no defensive bonuses = 351.65 ehp / 4 = 87.91 ehp per model

Rifles have 44.2% more ehp, Rifle models have 15.4% more ehp


Rifles Vet 3 (-23% and -15% RA): 5x80/((0.97/1.23)/1.15) = 583.3 ehp / 5 = 116.66 ehp per model
Grens vet 3 (-20% DR): 4x80/0.91x1.2 = 421.98 ehp / 4 = 105.49 ehp per model

Rifles have 38.23% more ehp, Rifle models have 10.6% more ehp


Additionally, Gren models cost 7.14% more at the start of the game, but once OST T4 is built, they cost the same.
20 May 2020, 19:32 PM
#24
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358



Strongly disagree with this. Main reason would be volk is cheap to reinforce, and bigger squad size help them to stay alive.

In a match, you don't need an elite damage dealer, you need good number of affordable and reliable infantry to stay presence at everywhere in the battlefield. The rest is placing them at tactical position to give advantage against enemy.


Well, i think we have a healthy disagreement, but we agree that having good map control is important.

Obers are like a spear, meanwhile cons/volks are like a short sword. One is fast and reliable for attacks and defense. The other simply outmatches any offensive potential at the expense of defense and versatility.
In game, many squads secure map control and resources. In tight frontlines stronger units withstand punishment and deal a lot of damage too.

Elite infantries are mainly AI squads with different mechanics (assault, camophlage, sniping, skills) and are focused on displacing normal defenses. Cost reliability is not their forte, otherwise you end up with elite core infantry. A whole new tier of infantry power.
22 May 2020, 20:03 PM
#25
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

Answer? Double BARs.

Also garands.
24 May 2020, 00:19 AM
#26
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 682



Vet 0 and Vet 1 (no defensive bonuses)
Grens: 4x80/0.91 = 351.65 ehp
Rifles: 5x80/0.97 = 412.37 ehp

Rifles have 17.26% more ehp


Rifles Vet 2 (-23% RA): 5x80/(0.97/1.23) = 507.22 ehp
Grens Vet 2: same as vet 1, since there's no defensive bonuses = 351.65 ehp

Rifles have 44.2% more ehp


Rifles Vet 3 (-23% and -15% RA): 5x80/((0.97/1.23)/1.15) = 583.3 ehp
Grens vet 3 (-20% DR): 4x80/0.91x1.2 = 421.98 ehp

Rifles have 38.23% more ehp


So your math + katitofs useless drama and conservative estimates = squads that have more models will cost more to reinforce
24 May 2020, 11:32 AM
#27
avatar of Goldenpunch

Posts: 124

jump backJump back to quoted post19 May 2020, 04:09 AMMittens
The USF in my opinion... Bleed manpower like crazy, sure it's infantry is good close range but does it rly deserve the high cost that it currently has for its mainline infantry

I can't be the be the only one questioning this, why is it seriously so expensive
280mp for a rifle with 28mp reinforce
200mp for a RE with a 25 reinforce.

I propose a discussion, should USF maineline be cheaper, should it's performance go down to compensate or should we keep the same price yet increase some vet...I'd like some thoughts.


TLDR: USF bleeds more than it should for cost of its mainline, should it be reduced or should performance be increased.


Do you wanna buff for usf ? HELL NO. NO way. Every faction can obtain buff but not usf. Btw usf is most underperforming faction in game.I am not one faction only player. İ play with soviets and ost too. But playing with usf is always pain in the ass. We need buff on USF. Just like urgently needed brits buff.
24 May 2020, 12:34 PM
#28
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

Tournament says otherwise
24 May 2020, 20:29 PM
#29
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

What about rifles vs grens? Vanilla volks vs rifles? Rifles vs OPtruppen?
Nono, because rifles are worse than cons or IS they need buff.
25 May 2020, 15:09 PM
#30
avatar of KONIUX27

Posts: 148

jump backJump back to quoted post19 May 2020, 04:09 AMMittens
The USF in my opinion... Bleed manpower like crazy, sure it's infantry is good close range but does it rly deserve the high cost that it currently has for its mainline infantry

I can't be the be the only one questioning this, why is it seriously so expensive
280mp for a rifle with 28mp reinforce
200mp for a RE with a 25 reinforce.

I propose a discussion, should USF maineline be cheaper, should it's performance go down to compensate or should we keep the same price yet increase some vet...I'd like some thoughts.


TLDR: USF bleeds more than it should for cost of its mainline, should it be reduced or should performance be increased.

Rifles are strongest mainline in game lol.... maybe after tommies
25 May 2020, 18:29 PM
#31
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


Rifles are strongest mainline in game lol.... maybe after tommies


Nah. Maybe if we compare no tech no doctrinal options for tommies vs Rifles.
25 May 2020, 19:20 PM
#32
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3


Rifles are strongest mainline in game lol.... maybe after tommies


Obviously, though I'd put Cons (SVT or 7man) after Rifles.
26 May 2020, 04:27 AM
#33
avatar of Applejack

Posts: 359

Rifles feel like they are in a very good position right now. They are basically near-elite infantry available at the start of the game. Cost adjusted to the value that they bring.

MP bleed only exists if you spam Riflemen and fight without cover.

I still think if anything needs adjusted is doctrinal armour for USF. That and a 'nerfed' Pershing should be made available to all USF players similar to King Tiger.
26 May 2020, 07:40 AM
#34
avatar of C3 TOOTH

Posts: 176

Do you want me to tell something stupid?

100 popcap, you able to get 14 RM squad, or Gren squad
- For RM, you have 70 models holding 28 Bars, or even 14 Bars and 14 M1919.
- For Gren, you have 56 models holding 14 LMG.

Dont just focus on price, pop cap also matter.
26 May 2020, 07:43 AM
#35
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

Do you want me to tell something stupid?

100 popcap, you able to get 14 RM squad, or Gren squad
- For RM, you have 70 models holding 28 Bars, or even 14 Bars and 14 M1919.
- For Gren, you have 56 models holding 14 LMG.

Dont just focus on price, pop cap also matter.

Do we really need to explain to you why this couldn't be more irrelevant, inconclusive and plain stupid example?
26 May 2020, 07:46 AM
#36
avatar of C3 TOOTH

Posts: 176

No one build 14 squads of mainline infantry, thats why I said its stupid.

Just to make it clear that Gren price is good for what they can do, but their pop cap price is too high.
26 May 2020, 07:49 AM
#37
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

There is specific reason their pop is high - to discourage spam.

For the same reason, 120mm mortar has unreasonably high pop even despite its low performance compared to standard stock one.
26 May 2020, 16:55 PM
#38
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1947

Rifles feel like they are in a very good position right now. They are basically near-elite infantry available at the start of the game. Cost adjusted to the value that they bring.

MP bleed only exists if you spam Riflemen and fight without cover.

I still think if anything needs adjusted is doctrinal armour for USF. That and a 'nerfed' Pershing should be made available to all USF players similar to King Tiger.


+1 - Pershing should be available only after researching both side techs or possibly a side tech of major. This would help USF in large team games without affecting 1v1's.

I played a lot of games as OST last weekend (my friends wanted to play Axis, specifically OKW). I never once had the thought "Wow, those Rifles really need a buff". If they were stronger, early game as Ost would suck.
26 May 2020, 21:35 PM
#39
avatar of Flyingsmonster

Posts: 155

Riflemen are better than they were last patch, the main issue is they need to be at close range to be effective early on, but once you get them some veterancy they improve quite a lot at all ranges.

I really don't think there's any issues, I mostly play USF and I feel like any buff to Riflemen would once again destroy balance, they are in a good spot.
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