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Pioneers after early game

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30 Apr 2020, 14:21 PM
#41
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

actually no , CE have been buffed with patches, they have the same weapon as cons but 2 less man, would u immagine if the same was done with pio and the ass green mp40 instead of the water guns they have now ?


Pios can beat rifleman in cqb

They're about CE tier, especially with their LoS. Let's not pretend CEs are massively better
30 Apr 2020, 15:15 PM
#42
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 282

Pios are fine in combat, but I think it would be great to be able to gain xp with mine and repairs for CE and Pio.
30 Apr 2020, 15:40 PM
#43
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

Pioneer could simply have their MP-40 replaced by K98 once upgrade with flamer or sweepers.

As alternative ways of gaining veterancy would try gaining xp for completion of structures with cost like buildings, mines...
30 Apr 2020, 15:45 PM
#44
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 570 | Subs: 1

Pios are only good with satchels (for suprise wipes) and 5men (which is basically just ++ to repair)


Mid to lategame just use them as mg42 protectors and sandbag spammers, Honestly i'd rather they just get some form of longrange firepower (same with sturmpios) as their dps is awful and their trading capabilties makes sure you're always on the losing end usually.
As with sturms you are purely relying on ambush tactics when alone, meaning you are easily pushed away, though their increased sight range is really *really* strong.
30 Apr 2020, 16:33 PM
#45
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

actually no , CE have been buffed with patches, they have the same weapon as cons but 2 less man, would u immagine if the same was done with pio and the ass green mp40 instead of the water guns they have now ?


That would be pretty OP. CE's have conscript weapons. They are 2/3rds of a conscript squad in size. So they do 2/3rds of conscript weapons while having 2/3rds HP of a conscript squad (a 240mp squad). Pios with Assault gren SMGs would perform at 4/5ths of the effectiveness of the assault grens (which are more expensive units than conscripts). At 200MP the pios would actually be better combat units than assault grens in terms of bang for your manpower-buck, in addition to having flamers, better vision, mines, able to repair etc.
30 Apr 2020, 16:47 PM
#46
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



That would be pretty OP. CE's have conscript weapons. They are 2/3rds of a conscript squad in size. So they do 2/3rds of conscript weapons while having 2/3rds HP of a conscript squad (a 240mp squad). Pios with Assault gren SMGs would perform at 4/5ths of the effectiveness of the assault grens (which are more expensive units than conscripts). At 200MP the pios would actually be better combat units than assault grens in terms of bang for your manpower-buck, in addition to having flamers, better vision, mines, able to repair etc.

I have to point out that CE start with target size of 1 while Conscripts with TS of 1.09 so the EHP ration is not 2/3.
30 Apr 2020, 16:51 PM
#47
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

I would rather have ost pios or even sturmpios be 3 man squads with some better RA or %dmg reduction maybe to compensate and then after some tier (BP1/SWS BHQ) they become 4 man, keeping their original stats.

This is only to emphazise the axis lower model count design.

This will put a lot of value on teamweapons because ost would lose a squad to recover them.
30 Apr 2020, 17:20 PM
#48
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2020, 16:47 PMVipper

I have to point out that CE start with target size of 1 while Conscripts with TS of 1.09 so the EHP ration is not 2/3.


I have to point out that I said HP and not EHP.
30 Apr 2020, 17:23 PM
#49
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2020, 15:40 PMVipper
Pioneer could simply have their MP-40 replaced by K98 once upgrade with flamer or sweepers.

As alternative ways of gaining veterancy would try gaining xp for completion of structures with cost like buildings, mines...

I can't say I agree with the Kar change. You get the benifit of a early game smg unit that can scout and then are equally as effective as the lesser CE when you upgrade on top of also getting bunkers and med kits?

It makes sense damage profile wise but not when balanced up against their closest counterpart who already does less. It would make them better CE in every way instead of different. Not a fan
30 Apr 2020, 17:24 PM
#50
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



That would be pretty OP. CE's have conscript weapons. They are 2/3rds of a conscript squad in size. So they do 2/3rds of conscript weapons while having 2/3rds HP of a conscript squad (a 240mp squad). Pios with Assault gren SMGs would perform at 4/5ths of the effectiveness of the assault grens (which are more expensive units than conscripts). At 200MP the pios would actually be better combat units than assault grens in terms of bang for your manpower-buck, in addition to having flamers, better vision, mines, able to repair etc.
other than the target size ce (1 vs 1.07) cost a measly 170mp while pio cost 200

even comparing cons 240 vs vs assgren (250-260 can't member) the CE save more (70 vs 50-60)

my point was CE and pio are not the same, one got buffed and works the other is forgotten and need to relay on doc crutches which is unhealthy
30 Apr 2020, 17:27 PM
#51
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789

I think the only buff pioneers / combat engineers could use would be prebuilt bases for Ostheer and Soviets, as it would give them a lot more uptime to do engineer things, without messing up any hard balance.

Unfortunately, such a drastic change is unlikely at this stage of the game.

30 Apr 2020, 17:29 PM
#52
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

other than the target size ce (1 vs 1.07) cost a measly 170mp while pio cost 200

even comparing cons 240 vs vs assgren (250-260 can't member) the CE save more (70 vs 50-60)

my point was CE and pio are not the same, one got buffed and works the other is forgotten and need to relay on doc crutches which is unhealthy


Pios got buffed too. They got extra vision and sandbags added to them.
30 Apr 2020, 18:10 PM
#53
avatar of Flyingsmonster

Posts: 155

actually no , CE have been buffed with patches, they have the same weapon as cons but 2 less man, would u immagine if the same was done with pio and the ass green mp40 instead of the water guns they have now ?


I'm not 100% sure, but I think they tried this in the past and it made them a little too powerful so they nerfed them back down again.
30 Apr 2020, 18:57 PM
#54
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



I'm not 100% sure, but I think they tried this in the past and it made them a little too powerful so they nerfed them back down again.

March deployment " iirc. Back when they thought that weapons should have profiles and do better or worse depending on range. It goes without saying this was way before WFA which absolutely dumpstered that idea with good at all ranges and on the move weapons. Pios were no joke after that update tho. It was scary sruff
30 Apr 2020, 19:38 PM
#55
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

then how about 5 men at tier 4 base or making the weapon better ? not ass green lvl just a bit better
30 Apr 2020, 19:54 PM
#56
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Which is why any buff Pio's got, was utility wise oriented so not to make the same mistake again.

Early game changes can spiral down pretty quickly. That patch was called OH deployment, on top of Pio spam, Grens could also suppress with their basic rifles passively.


I have always preferred a way to buff OH would be 5 man Pios at BP3 to keep up with repairs, recrewing and capping in the late game. But i guess this goes against the whole 4 man no doc identity.
30 Apr 2020, 20:44 PM
#57
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


I can't say I agree with the Kar change. You get the benifit of a early game smg unit that can scout and then are equally as effective as the lesser CE when you upgrade on top of also getting bunkers and med kits?

It makes sense damage profile wise but not when balanced up against their closest counterpart who already does less. It would make them better CE in every way instead of different. Not a fan

They cost so they should perform better yet CE are great in early fights once upgraded with flamer and supported merge.

But the issue is not how they compare with CE. They issue is that is extremely difficult to gain veterancy with pioneers.
30 Apr 2020, 20:50 PM
#58
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2020, 20:44 PMVipper

They cost so they should perform better yet CE are great in early fights once upgraded with flamer and supported merge.

But the issue is not how they compare with CE. They issue is that is extremely difficult to gain veterancy with pioneers.


And pios are excellent in spotting for and recrewing ATGs and HMGs.
Both are good in the context of their respective army and supporting it.

Veterancy isn't pio exclusive problem - have you ever tries to vet up CE in late game?
I've already suggested what can be done to address both in a balanced manner that puts emphasis on them supporting armies, not being armies by themselves.
30 Apr 2020, 20:52 PM
#59
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2020, 20:50 PMKatitof


And pios are excellent in spotting for and recrewing ATGs and HMGs.
Both are good in the context of their respective army and supporting it.

Veterancy isn't pio exclusive problem - have you ever tries to vet up CE in late game?
I've already suggested what can be done to address both in a balanced manner that puts emphasis on them supporting armies, not being armies by themselves.

If it hard for CE to gain veterancy it harder for pios. What is suggested was giving bolt action rifles similar to CE that would even the odds.
30 Apr 2020, 21:08 PM
#60
avatar of Sumi

Posts: 132

Oh come on, Pios have satchel, can plant the AT mines. Can block an area with AI mines. And no good players makes them more than 2. OST AT mines one shots allied light vehicles that is 50/60/70/70 fuel and mp straight down the gutter.

Nothing needs to be changed for pios.
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