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Are we still playing Coh2 in 2vs2 or Company of Tigers?

30 Mar 2020, 09:03 AM
#1
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2825 | Subs: 1

Twenty 2vs2 games played this week-end, something like 35-36 Tigers met. And only because I'm no counting the game I won before our opponents could call in them and that one game where a Sturmtiger were built (refreshing game to play)

The modus Operatus today always the same:
OKW insta pick Grand Offensive
Ostheer insta pick whatever commander they like with a Tiger in it.

Some say it is because without using them Ostheer and OKW are helpless and would lose irremediably every time. Well I'd like to know how they can affirm that since nobody play anything else.
Some other (or the same) say that because of the IS2/ISU, on my 20 games I barely saw 2 or 3 of them together.

I'd like to put some pressure on the balance team to solve this issue. If the game feel more balanced to a certain point, that particular point is definitively the moment Tigers hit the field.
And from what I saw from the patch mode, Tigers are still going to be the no brainer go-to-rape your opponent who stupidly decided to play with other doctrines than IS2-ISU-Pershing etc... Yes guys, others doctrines exist and your commitment to balance those super heavies between them is completely pointless if you don't balance them with the rest of the doctrines available for each faction.

So please, bring them back to an acceptable level of play. That's not a question of price but powerlevel, I'd like to do something else than being force to spam Jackson or SU-85 because there nothing else that can stop them. Atguns frontally depop in a matter of seconds etc, at infantry being pointless... ah yes remains the ram+airstrke, don't you feel there is an issue when the only counter for a unit is such bs action?

Please be kind, do something effective, stop with the "we slightly reduced their opness vs infantry" attitude. The problem is the unit, not how they deal with infantry.

30 Mar 2020, 09:18 AM
#2
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2043

Play games with the Winter Preview Patch and give your feedback if nerfed heavies will still be too strong or not.

/thread
30 Mar 2020, 09:40 AM
#3
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1146

That is what you get when Ost T4 is not viable and for OKW the KT is a slow lumbering piece of trash that has to face highest pen 60 range TDs. There currently is no other option in a competitive game.
30 Mar 2020, 09:46 AM
#4
avatar of RollingStone

Posts: 153

Looking forward to that Winter balance patch with upgrades from Ostheer T4 applying for Ostruppen. Tiger spam is a no-brainer and no fun to both play with and play against.

#MAKE_PROSTRUPPEN_GREAT_AGAIN
30 Mar 2020, 10:14 AM
#5
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2825 | Subs: 1

Play games with the Winter Preview Patch and give your feedback if nerfed heavies will still be too strong or not.

/thread


They´re still going to be super effective vs infantry - check (on this matter Thighrope test has been quite revelating on people horrified that Tigers wouldn't be anymore super effective vs infantry and Sanders coming back to the rescue to confirm the opposite)
they´re still going to be super effective vs medium tanks -check
They´re still going to be uncounterable by Anything else than other heavies or dedicated TDs - check.

We're in a game that's supposed to be based on a rock/paper/scissor balance mode and you bring a unit that counter rock, paper and scissor altogether. So yes the patch will make them a bit less effective vs scissor, what a great news.

Me I'd like to see penetration bonus for Atgun vs them, I'd like to see deflection damage for medium vs them, something that not make you completely relying on a single unit to keep them at distance while in the mean time if it fail due to bad luck the Tiger just ripe off half of your army because reason.
I'd like to see someone investing in 3 or 4 shermans/t34/cromwell having a good chance to take it down and not just continuously bouncing shot because game devs decided that Tigers should only be countered by FF/Jacksons/Su-85 or die.

Because that's actually the case in 2vs2- You have an even game till 20 minutes then Tigers appear and ripe-off everything because if one side didn't preventively invested in 3 or 4 TDs that's game over.



30 Mar 2020, 10:36 AM
#6
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8291 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Mar 2020, 10:14 AMEsxile

...
Me I'd like to see penetration bonus for Atgun vs them, I'd like to see deflection damage for medium vs them, something that not make you completely relying on a single unit to keep them at distance while in the mean time if it fail due to bad luck the Tiger just ripe off half of your army because reason.
I'd like to see someone investing in 3 or 4 shermans/t34/cromwell having a good chance to take it down and not just continuously bouncing shot because game devs decided that Tigers should only be countered by FF/Jacksons/Su-85 or die.
....

You can say the same about KV-2, IS-2, Croc, Pershing.

This is not a Tiger issue.
30 Mar 2020, 12:20 PM
#7
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 989 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Mar 2020, 10:14 AMEsxile


They´re still going to be super effective vs infantry - check (on this matter Thighrope test has been quite revelating on people horrified that Tigers wouldn't be anymore super effective vs infantry and Sanders coming back to the rescue to confirm the opposite)


The insta kill radius for infantry has been nerfed quite a lot and shrunk down to a fifth. If my numbers are correct (scatter neglected however), every normal medium and even a command P4 now has a higher wipe potential than the Tiger. Their overall AoE has not gone down that dramatically though, so they have seen the treatment basically every high wipe potential unit has seen in the last years. And balance team has had a good record of rebalancing AoE units so far.

This will make AT guns much stronger, because one of the issues was that the gunners could get wiped before getting a couple of shots off.

I do not like the current heavy-only meta, but I am against the idea that mediums should be a reliable counter to heavies, because this is one of the main purposes of heavies: not needing to care about mediums anymore if they show their frontal armor. Currently, mediums have about a 70-80% pen chance at max range if they hit the rear armor, which goes up by a couple percent if you go to range 20.
30 Mar 2020, 14:27 PM
#8
avatar of Ultimate26

Posts: 38

might aswell make all heavies non-doctrinal to get some commander variety if everyone gonna run the one commander that has a the specific heavy.
30 Mar 2020, 14:32 PM
#9
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2825 | Subs: 1



The insta kill radius for infantry has been nerfed quite a lot and shrunk down to a fifth. If my numbers are correct (scatter neglected however), every normal medium and even a command P4 now has a higher wipe potential than the Tiger. Their overall AoE has not gone down that dramatically though, so they have seen the treatment basically every high wipe potential unit has seen in the last years. And balance team has had a good record of rebalancing AoE units so far.

This will make AT guns much stronger, because one of the issues was that the gunners could get wiped before getting a couple of shots off.

I do not like the current heavy-only meta, but I am against the idea that mediums should be a reliable counter to heavies, because this is one of the main purposes of heavies: not needing to care about mediums anymore if they show their frontal armor. Currently, mediums have about a 70-80% pen chance at max range if they hit the rear armor, which goes up by a couple percent if you go to range 20.


MMX study on the matter seems to show something different:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/104512/tiger-main-gun-nerf-too-much-winter-patch/post/812126


It is hard to make a good opinion at the moment on what will be the situation in the next patch and honestly I'll prefer too much nerf than not enough when it comes to heavies. They don't bring anything to gameplay, they weren't needed before their boost and they're completely suffocating the game at the moment.

I think mediums should still be a treat to heavies and not only by flanking behind with all the at snare and atgun that are around them. It is too easy to have your tiger wiping the place with a couple of at snares and an atgun behind to prevent flanking.

Atgun problem is their lack of reliability vs heavies. USF ones is probably the worst offender here since you must spend a shitload amount of munition to be effective when RNG jesus doesn't decide to fuck with you anyway.
30 Mar 2020, 15:12 PM
#10
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8291 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Mar 2020, 14:32 PMEsxile


MMX study on the matter seems to show something different:

It is hard to make a good opinion at the moment on what will be the situation in the next patch and honestly I'll prefer too much nerf than not enough when it comes to heavies. They don't bring anything to gameplay, they weren't needed before their boost and they're completely suffocating the game at the moment.

I think mediums should still be a treat to heavies and not only by flanking behind with all the at snare and atgun that are around them. It is too easy to have your tiger wiping the place with a couple of at snares and an atgun behind to prevent flanking.

Atgun problem is their lack of reliability vs heavies. USF ones is probably the worst offender here since you must spend a shitload amount of munition to be effective when RNG jesus doesn't decide to fuck with you anyway.

And PzIV are probably the lest cost efficient since they are are more expensive with low penetration. And that goes even beyond super heavies (limited to 1) since PzIV are quite bad even vs Churchill and KV-1.

Again this is not a Tiger issue.
30 Mar 2020, 16:16 PM
#11
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 897

  • TDs are extremely viable against heavies and mediums at the same time
  • Mediums are made obsolete by late-game TDs
  • OST (and OKW, somewhat) rely on vehicle-based AI to stay relevant late-game
  • Since mediums can't survive late-game, the only option is heavies (better investment)
  • Constant 'heavy spam' forces allies to TD spam (or get their own heavies)
  • OST/OKW now forced into heavies since TDs will always be present, invalidating mediums

I don't say this lightly, but the only solution to the current "60 TD Meta" is literally a rework of every tank in the game. We're currently stuck in a situation where either "60 TDs" are the obvious pick in every situation, or they're nerfed to the point where the game is unplayable. This needs to be fixed; and the only way to do this is by completely reworking how every vehicles relates to each other.


Rework the current set of TDs, then nerf heavies down to acceptable levels. Then mediums will be viable again, meaning different builds/metas can actually show up. TDs need to good against either] mediums OR heavies; not both. This would allow some actual counter-play.
30 Mar 2020, 16:22 PM
#12
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15226 | Subs: 7

I do not like the current heavy-only meta, but I am against the idea that mediums should be a reliable counter to heavies, because this is one of the main purposes of heavies: not needing to care about mediums anymore if they show their frontal armor. Currently, mediums have about a 70-80% pen chance at max range if they hit the rear armor, which goes up by a couple percent if you go to range 20.

2 meds shouldn't frontally counter heavy, but 1 heavy shouldn't be cheaper then 2 meds if its to counter them without much of an issue.

To me the biggest problem with heavies is not how effective they are themselves, but how cost effective they are compared to alternative, which is multiple meds.

While heavies are quite vulnerable from behind, unless heavy overextends, you aren't going to get a lot of opportunities to exploit that weakness.
30 Mar 2020, 16:41 PM
#13
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 989 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Mar 2020, 14:32 PMEsxile


MMX study on the matter seems to show something different:

It is hard to make a good opinion at the moment on what will be the situation in the next patch and honestly I'll prefer too much nerf than not enough when it comes to heavies. They don't bring anything to gameplay, they weren't needed before their boost and they're completely suffocating the game at the moment.

I think mediums should still be a treat to heavies and not only by flanking behind with all the at snare and atgun that are around them. It is too easy to have your tiger wiping the place with a couple of at snares and an atgun behind to prevent flanking.

Atgun problem is their lack of reliability vs heavies. USF ones is probably the worst offender here since you must spend a shitload amount of munition to be effective when RNG jesus doesn't decide to fuck with you anyway.


I know about MMX and his simulation. From what I can tell they are a good model for the data we have. We're currently trying to figure out which improvements can be made, although he is the one to implement them since he knows a lot more than me about the actual implementation into Excel.

Regarding the simulation itself it does fit decently well with what I said. The overall AoE gets nerfed only slightly, that's why you see only a small increase in the shot number. The simulation is set up so that the squad just sits there until it dies, so the overall AoE is quite important since missed shots still accumulate damage on all models. The current OHK radia vs infantry go down from 1.0XX to about 0.5 for Tiger and IS2. For the Tiger this leads to a OHK nerf by 78%. So all in all, we should see less lucky wipes on retreating squads and also a little bit less bleed over time, since the Tiger is more unlikely to directly kill multiple models with the first one or two shots. At least that's my theory. If it's enough? I don't know, we have to see
30 Mar 2020, 19:17 PM
#14
avatar of Sumi

Posts: 62

Ha I love this thread, Tiger is a problem right now, imagine we had to play Tiger with a barrage option, I literally don't believe any other allied tank has this option. As for the tiger, it can literally bounce anything frontally in the Allied units, yes I have had ISU-152 AT shells bounce on Tiger's frontal shell, imagine that. Stalin would have suicided if he knew such a thing existed in games.

What's more mad is that OST tiger comes in 9 CP right now and IS-2 at 10 I don't understand why tho, because IS-2 vs Tiger and IS-2 shells will bounce more on the Tiger's than vice versa, it is faster than IS-2. The CP requirement is about to change so I hope they become equal.

Additionally, to counter tiger Allies have to invest in TDs which are sole purpose TDs which can get flanked by a Puma or PZ IV to save face whereas if the any Axis tank other than Jagdpanzer IV has AI component that can be used to flank and eventually destroy any unguarded weapon. US has pershing as a cute joke with same fuel and CP as tiger whereas being in no place to even compete with it. Only one doctrine with pershing but that is understandable since pershing was unavailable in WW 2 i.e came in when the war was mostly over. Funny right we tend to historical accuracy only where we want to and not over the entire game.
30 Mar 2020, 19:18 PM
#15
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2825 | Subs: 1



I know about MMX and his simulation. From what I can tell they are a good model for the data we have. We're currently trying to figure out which improvements can be made, although he is the one to implement them since he knows a lot more than me about the actual implementation into Excel.

Regarding the simulation itself it does fit decently well with what I said. The overall AoE gets nerfed only slightly, that's why you see only a small increase in the shot number. The simulation is set up so that the squad just sits there until it dies, so the overall AoE is quite important since missed shots still accumulate damage on all models. The current OHK radia vs infantry go down from 1.0XX to about 0.5 for Tiger and IS2. For the Tiger this leads to a OHK nerf by 78%. So all in all, we should see less lucky wipes on retreating squads and also a little bit less bleed over time, since the Tiger is more unlikely to directly kill multiple models with the first one or two shots. At least that's my theory. If it's enough? I don't know, we have to see


My question is why are you only focusing on their AI potential? At the moment my impression is that balance team is only working on what make them over the top when my concern is why should they be the top vs any anything AND be that resilient.
Even if they are less potent vs infantry they're going to be the get-to-go because of their insane resilience. Not to mention that Tigers are also part of the best doctrines available. We're not in a configuration of -less than average doctrine but with a Tiger-, quite the opposite at the moment.

I just had a game where I managed to have 3 atgun and my opponent be like -Who cares, call in a Tiger, and he was right since he managed to turn the tide with it. There is clearly a problem with here.

30 Mar 2020, 19:29 PM
#16
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15226 | Subs: 7

Removing range vet from heavies and possibly bringing back range of tiger to 40 would also help keeping heavies strong, but not roflstompy if cost isn't going to go up any further.

Shitload of possible BOs and doctrines are shut down by default by overpowering presence of opposing heavy or appeal of own one.
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