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russian armor

Stupa (Brummbar poll)

If you wanted to buff the Stupa what would you do?
Option Distribution Votes
10%
21%
18%
21%
5%
26%
Total votes: 62
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
18 Feb 2020, 23:15 PM
#1
avatar of NorthFireZ

Posts: 193

I would just like to see the thoughts on Stupa so far. During the Winter Amateur tournament I've noticed that the armor buff at vet 3 does literally nothing against the already prevelant TDs while make it even harder for mediums and at guns to even think about challenging it.

I'm leaning more towards a range revert but the balance team seems to want to make the Stupa a short range, high armored, assault vehicle capable of breaking front lines and decrew weapon teams.

However, the range on this thing just puts it at a situation where it's constantly being hit and forced to repair.

I'd personally like the Stupa to be more consistent since Heavies can now bleed infantry and chunk them in health in far less shots than the Stupa. Therefore I want some projectile speed buff and vehicle rotation speed to make up for a lack of turret.
18 Feb 2020, 23:25 PM
#2
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2084

if the projectile speed gets increased, then how are you supposed to dodge the shots if it gets fired in the faster cone angle? A brumm always forces a retreat immediately if it hits.

I would just revert the range but leave the armor so high that it can bounce AT guns and mediums reliably but so low that it gets evaporated vs tank destroyers, cuz thats how it should be
18 Feb 2020, 23:28 PM
#3
avatar of borobadger

Posts: 117

Brummbar is fine
18 Feb 2020, 23:29 PM
#4
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 794

Voted 'other'. It needs a slight range increase (to 45) and a projectile speed increase. Right now the unit has very little range, and demands high levels of micro to use, on top of it being slow, turret-less, and expensive. Compared to the KV2, Scott, and even 105-sherman, it has a pretty excessive micro-tax.

The slow rotation speed is fine, as it makes it vulnerable to flanking, and also means positioning is somewhat important.

if the projectile speed gets increased, then how are you supposed to dodge the shots if it gets fired in the faster cone angle? A brumm always forces a retreat immediately if it hits.


Same way OST and OKW (to a lesser extend) dodge 2x M8-Scotts - by staying out of the area and forcing it back with AT.
18 Feb 2020, 23:41 PM
#5
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7640 | Subs: 1

Main problem of Axis armor is not their own performance but the performance of the Allied TD...

Other than I would test redesigning the unit with the following goals:
Increase units tenacity while lowering its lethality.

Add utility instead of killing power like:
Extra damage vs buildings especially to the barrage
Superior modifiers vs cover/garrison similar to flame tanks
Critical affects on targets like:
vs vehicles injured gunner/loader/driver
vs infantry/team weapons new critical "shell shock" penalties to ROF/accuracy/ damage

Now the units is designed to spear head attack allot like Churchill and counter buildings and units in cover.
18 Feb 2020, 23:54 PM
#6
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2034

Brummbar is fine



I've noticed that the armor buff at vet 3 does literally nothing against the already prevelant TDs


You’re not supposed to get this unit if your opponent has 2+ TDs.
19 Feb 2020, 02:55 AM
#7
avatar of NorthFireZ

Posts: 193






You’re not supposed to get this unit if your opponent has 2+ TDs.


Never said that. Strawman.
19 Feb 2020, 02:58 AM
#8
avatar of NorthFireZ

Posts: 193

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Feb 2020, 23:41 PMVipper
Main problem of Axis armor is not their own performance but the performance of the Allied TD...

Other than I would test redesigning the unit with the following goals:
Increase units tenacity while lowering its lethality.

Add utility instead of killing power like:
Extra damage vs buildings especially to the barrage
Superior modifiers vs cover/garrison similar to flame tanks
Critical affects on targets like:
vs vehicles injured gunner/loader/driver
vs infantry/team weapons new critical "shell shock" penalties to ROF/accuracy/ damage

Now the units is designed to spear head attack allot like Churchill and counter buildings and units in cover.


I thought Howi weapons like M8, Stupa, and Leig already have bonus damage garrisons? Or maybe that's just their massive aoe.

I like the idea of a shell shock but maybe as a timed ability.
19 Feb 2020, 03:01 AM
#9
avatar of NorthFireZ

Posts: 193

if the projectile speed gets increased, then how are you supposed to dodge the shots if it gets fired in the faster cone angle? A brumm always forces a retreat immediately if it hits.

I would just revert the range but leave the armor so high that it can bounce AT guns and mediums reliably but so low that it gets evaporated vs tank destroyers, cuz thats how it should be


It doesn't evaporate but rather stuck in a loop of infinite repairs against TDS.

Well, idk of units are suppose to dodge the shots entirtly but it shouldn't be much of a problem. Leig and Howi has pretty fast shells too. But you can play around with AOE if Projectile speed gets added.

19 Feb 2020, 03:09 AM
#10
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 515


However, the range on this thing just puts it at a situation where it's constantly being hit and forced to repair.

How is this any different from the Churchill? You could make an argument ost repair speeds are weak but they recently got a buff in this area with minesweeper package.

If it's going to be a high armor unit it should be balanced around short range engagements.

Otherwise you have a situation where it can barrage safely from range but even when allied get desperate and push with mediums or premium meds they will be bouncing (no TDs can not dive high armour units in this situation and this will be a problem)
19 Feb 2020, 03:42 AM
#11
avatar of NorthFireZ

Posts: 193


How is this any different from the Churchill? You could make an argument ost repair speeds are weak but they recently got a buff in this area with minesweeper package.

If it's going to be a high armor unit it should be balanced around short range engagements.

Otherwise you have a situation where it can barrage safely from range but even when allied get desperate and push with mediums or premium meds they will be bouncing (no TDs can not dive high armour units in this situation and this will be a problem)


yes, ost repair is pretty weak.

Difference with the churchill is that the churhill has higher healthpool and has access to doctrinal crew repair abilities. 5 man Sappers also repair faster than Minesweeper Pios.

I didn't make an argument about what the Stupa is. I didn't even say it was weak. Rather I asked what the percieved notion is and how you would improve it since the balance team feels the unit is weak and have now chosen to buff it.

I'd like the range to stay where it is, but I also would like the unit to be more reliable due to lack of turret.

19 Feb 2020, 03:50 AM
#12
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 515



yes, ost repair is pretty weak.

Difference with the churchill is that the churhill has higher healthpool and has access to doctrinal crew repair abilities. 5 man Sappers also repair faster than Minesweeper Pios.

I didn't make an argument about what the Stupa is. I didn't even say it was weak. Rather I asked what the percieved notion is and how you would improve it since the balance team feels the unit is weak and have now chosen to buff it.

I'd like the range to stay where it is, but I also would like the unit to be more reliable due to lack of turret.



Let's not go down the doctrinal rabbit hole because then you have stuff like Ost pixie dust on every vehicle adding to survivability.

I think brum is in a weird spot because it still has vet focused around short range (armor buff) and also simultaneously bunker buster that lets it clear units at range.

If you ask me one or the other could get removed, adjust the vehicle into a specialist for either role with focused buffs.

Issue with the old brum was just destroying everything at range and then even if you closed with something like an upgunned Sherman he would be bouncing all day with vet 2 armor. The very definition of frustrating gameplay.
19 Feb 2020, 08:07 AM
#13
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 789

I would like to see a mobility buff: accel, decel, rotation, maybe even speed.

Mobility would result in higher survivability and emphasize good micro (armor only emphasizes RNG). Roll in as spearhead, take out the most valuable unit, roll out.
Maybe a scatter buff if additionally necessary. Although this could reault in a nerf for the majority of the playerbase. Buffing projectile speed is a mice idea independent of the rest of all that, but could lead to additional rebalances regarding ROF and AoE profile
19 Feb 2020, 08:55 AM
#14
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2196 | Subs: 6

Maybe a scatter buff if additionally necessary


The Brummbar practically has no scatter. Its scatter max is 2.5. Which makes it incredibly effective when hold fire + attack ground is used. The reason it sometimes seems to "miss" on autofire is because it'll occasionally target one of the outer models of a squad.
19 Feb 2020, 09:51 AM
#15
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 789



The Brummbar practically has no scatter. Its scatter max is 2.5. Which makes it incredibly effective when hold fire + attack ground is used. The reason it sometimes seems to "miss" on autofire is because it'll occasionally target one of the outer models of a squad.


Alright, did not know this. Then this point is off the table obviously
19 Feb 2020, 11:02 AM
#16
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7640 | Subs: 1



I thought Howi weapons like M8, Stupa, and Leig already have bonus damage garrisons? Or maybe that's just their massive aoe.

I like the idea of a shell shock but maybe as a timed ability.

Modifier vs garrison
M1 pak howi Garrison damage 0.5
M8 A1 Garrison damage 0.25
Stup Garrison damage 0.25
Leig Garrison damage 0.5
19 Feb 2020, 11:03 AM
#17
avatar of blancat

Posts: 741

revert range and nerf AOE dmg
19 Feb 2020, 18:51 PM
#18
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2040


How is this any different from the Churchill? You could make an argument ost repair speeds are weak but they recently got a buff in this area with minesweeper package.

If it's going to be a high armor unit it should be balanced around short range engagements.

Otherwise you have a situation where it can barrage safely from range but even when allied get desperate and push with mediums or premium meds they will be bouncing (no TDs can not dive high armour units in this situation and this will be a problem)

Ill point you the difference (and i am not UKF main). Churchill can kill Pz4 and panthers. A brumbarr can only will a (Dead AFK) T-34. And funnily enough, the t34 flanking the stupa can actually kill it with rear armor hits.

So, a churchill is a bullet sponge, a brumbarr is a tough nut. See the rear armor values to figure it out.

Brumbarr is effective vs ATs (some people will say no but) yes, churchill? yes.
Will brumbarr displace tanks? No. Will churchill? Maybe.
Does brumbarr have smoke? Doctrinal. Churchill? Yes.

The differences are subtle but show the units have different objectives
19 Feb 2020, 18:54 PM
#19
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1128

Revert the changes to pre nerf (aka range + armor). There was an incredibly power creep during the last patches. And this lategame power creep mainly affected Allied factions (Conscript buffs, KV buffs, Rifle buff, heavy tank buffs) which will continue (impeeding Brit buffs).

Ost needs straight up buffs instead of "adjustments". As others have stated buffs for other factions are rarely a problem. Meanwhile there is an incredible hesitation to buff Ost stuff with fake arguments like 3v3 and 4v4 scrub modes.
19 Feb 2020, 19:11 PM
#20
avatar of NorthFireZ

Posts: 193

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Feb 2020, 18:54 PMButcher
Revert the changes to pre nerf (aka range + armor). There was an incredibly power creep during the last patches. And this lategame power creep mainly affected Allied factions (Conscript buffs, KV buffs, Rifle buff, heavy tank buffs) which will continue (impeeding Brit buffs).

Ost needs straight up buffs instead of "adjustments". As others have stated buffs for other factions are rarely a problem. Meanwhile there is an incredible hesitation to buff Ost stuff with fake arguments like 3v3 and 4v4 scrub modes.


It actually seem like Ost is getting stright buffs in the winter preview. Gren reinforce 30>28, Stupa Armor buff, T4 made cheaper by 15 fuel.

Okw in the last few patches has also been given a lot of love. Obers arrive faster now, Panzer Fusis reworked into a good unit, attention to Kubel, and etc.

You can't say there is only changes that only affect allied factions because it's simply not true.
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