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russian armor

StuG and SU-76

4 Feb 2020, 15:47 PM
#1
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

In the age of heavies, these two lighter tank destroyers have been left behind.

The StuG is designed as a bread-and-butter tank destroyer for Ost, and matches up well against most armour in the game. However, it loses to its fuel cost in call-in heavies like the IS-2 because of its relatively low penetration, making building what should be a fairly standard unit a risky play.

The SU-76's initial design was a dual-role artillery tractor / light tank destroyer. It had a weaker barrage than the ZiS gun, but it was free. This turned into a problem in team games when players figured out they could buy loads of them and nuke any unit that came close by stacking several barrages on top of them.

The solution was to give the SU-76 the ZiS barrage (which costs munitions) instead. It was a good idea in theory, but taking away the SU-76's ability to act as an indirect fire weapon killed it off: the T-70 already beats everything at that timing that's not a Puma, and the SU-76 isn't guaranteed to beat that.

I've got a solution for each.

StuG
  • Replace the StuG's ineffective HEAT shell ability with a timed AP shell ability like its closest parallel, the M10, has. This'll allow veteran StuGs to engage heavier targets when vetted up if you pay munitions.


SU-76
  • If it's meant to be a hybrid artillery tractor/tank destroyer, scrap the ZiS barrage and give it the ability to switch to an anti-infantry mode. Something like the StuG-E's shells should do it. It then becomes a more defensive alternative to the T-70.

  • If it's meant to be a tank destroyer, raise its cost to 280 MP 90 FU and give it 160 damage. If it's a ZiS gun on tracks, let it be a ZiS gun on tracks.
4 Feb 2020, 15:53 PM
#2
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

I like the 1st idea for the SU76 giving it mode to switch to. OST is supposed to suck, clearly evident by the balance team.
4 Feb 2020, 16:01 PM
#3
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

StuGG is absolutely perfect, hands off. And removing the TWP is a super nerf to it.

SU76 needs a 5 sec switch between AP and HE rounds. Make the HE rounds 35-40 range, same characteristics as Stugie.
4 Feb 2020, 16:17 PM
#4
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

I would rather see a "camouflage ambush" ability on stug that would allow it to fire a couple of round before it has to retreat.

Ability:
Unit become stationary, gains 20-30 rotation and 10-15 sight range.

As for the SU-76 it does need a dual shell in my opinion. It problem is the performance of the unit but the better options. Nerfing the other option in specific areas will create room for the unit.

4 Feb 2020, 16:51 PM
#5
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Feb 2020, 16:17 PMVipper
I would rather see a "camouflage ambush" ability on stug that would allow it to fire a couple of round before it has to retreat.

Ability:
Unit become stationary, gains 20-30 rotation and 10-15 sight range.

As for the SU-76 it does need a dual shell in my opinion. It problem is the performance of the unit but the better options. Nerfing the other option in specific areas will create room for the unit.


Why would you give the stug such a bad ability.
4 Feb 2020, 18:16 PM
#6
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Stug G:

-Heat shell: As it already forces a reload before firing, i don't see why it should have the damage reduced.
Damage from 80 to 160

-Swap vet 2 with vet 3.

-Optional: replace 10% reload vet 3 (current vet 2) with accuracy 20-30% (values which other TDs get)

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Feb 2020, 16:17 PMVipper
As for the SU-76 it does need a dual shell in my opinion. It problem is the performance of the unit but the better options. Nerfing the other option in specific areas will create room for the unit.


The unit will not see play by just nerfing the Su85. Reminder that the Su76 receive plenty of nerfs just so the unit will give space towards the Su85.
We went from having Su76 spam been meta (because barrage was free) to barely seeing it used. At the same time this happened, the Su85 was not buffed but nerf (popcap increase).

Not really sure what to do with the Su76, trying a small range Stug-E like version could work.


4 Feb 2020, 18:40 PM
#7
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 416 | Subs: 1

A benefit of a shell toggle for SU-76 is that Soviets are more reliant on munitions now than they had been in the past.

Increasing AT damage is also good. The SU-76 currently gains a little damage with veterancy, so that should be replaced with something else. A mobility buff?
4 Feb 2020, 18:43 PM
#8
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

...

The unit will not see play by just nerfing the Su85. Reminder that the Su76 receive plenty of nerfs just so the unit will give space towards the Su85.
We went from having Su76 spam been meta (because barrage was free) to barely seeing it used. At the same time this happened, the Su85 was not buffed but nerf (popcap increase).

Not really sure what to do with the Su76, trying a small range Stug-E like version could work.

It will see more action if the medium tank phase of the game actually starts to exist.

Currently there is little reason to build mediums tanks and thus even less to built medium TDs...
4 Feb 2020, 18:46 PM
#9
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 306

Stug G:

-Heat shell: As it already forces a reload before firing, i don't see why it should have the damage reduced.
Damage from 80 to 160

-Swap vet 2 with vet 3.

-Optional: replace 10% reload vet 3 (current vet 2) with accuracy 20-30% (values which other TDs get)



The unit will not see play by just nerfing the Su85. Reminder that the Su76 receive plenty of nerfs just so the unit will give space towards the Su85.
We went from having Su76 spam been meta (because barrage was free) to barely seeing it used. At the same time this happened, the Su85 was not buffed but nerf (popcap increase).

Not really sure what to do with the Su76, trying a small range Stug-E like version could work.




+1 coudnt have said it better, stug vet 1 is like a downgrate nowadays :D, doing full dmg would also help in hunting heavy targets, since it has guaranted pen afaik
4 Feb 2020, 18:59 PM
#10
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Feb 2020, 18:43 PMVipper

It will see more action if the medium tank phase of the game actually start to exist.

Currently there is little reason to building tanks and thus even less to built medium TDs...


Yeah medium tank play time is to short indeed. Thus the same goes for medium td,s.
4 Feb 2020, 19:08 PM
#11
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

StuGG is absolutely perfect, hands off. And removing the TWP is a super nerf to it.


It's super terrible, try it in cheatmod. It has both halved damage and very long activation time, so you're closer to wasting 240 damage instead of 80. I'm not sure even after testing, but I think the different HEAT / TWP shells work something like this:

Stug G
shoot -> reloading.. -> order heat -> reaim :snfPeter: -> 4 sec activation.. -> shoot heat -> winddown -> reload reset :snfPeter: -> reloading.. -> shoot

Stug E
shoot -> reloading.. -> order heat -> 3 sec activation.. -> shoot heat -> winddown -> reloading without reset.. -> shoot

Pak 40
shoot -> reloading.. -> order TWP -> 3 sec activation.. -> shoot either TWP or normal shell depending on if TWP got activated in time before reload was finished, if normal shell was fired, TWP gets fired next cycle

I could be wrong about how they work, but at least I know 100% sure that Stug G HEAT is trash. :)
4 Feb 2020, 20:30 PM
#12
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Feb 2020, 18:43 PMVipper

It will see more action if the medium tank phase of the game actually starts to exist.

Currently there is little reason to build mediums tanks and thus even less to built medium TDs...


We had a medium tank phase before Heavy apocalypse, specially during Ostwind buff.
4 Feb 2020, 20:37 PM
#13
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1

Tweaking the HEAT Shell would be a good way to give StuG some love against Heavies (though I guess you could argue that OST is supposed to transition to T4 to better fight heavies but that's probably best saved for the Balance Mod Thread). If anything I think just upping damage to 160 would help OR having HEAT shells apply an armor debuff effect as well - that way it's less OP against mediums where it matters less but helps against Heavies.

4 Feb 2020, 20:40 PM
#14
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


We had a medium tank phase before Heavy apocalypse, specially during Ostwind buff.


And we should have one again. And actually the Ostwind power level should be lowered to around 280/90. The unit has very little reason to be more expensive than T-34/76.
4 Feb 2020, 21:35 PM
#15
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Feb 2020, 20:40 PMVipper


And we should have one again. And actually the Ostwind power level should be lowered to around 280/90. The unit has very little reason to be more expensive than T-34/76.


I'm saying that even with mediums going around and been meta, Su76 did not see much use.
Main selling point was free barrage and high pen. That even if it had lower damage, you would just spam them in pairs or more so it wouldn't had made much difference than going for an Su85. Then you would just get a Call in vehicle.

Nowadays the barrage cost munition, it's getting properly nerfed, the pen and RoF went down. SU no longer is free muni and it requires T4 for upgrades and Call ins.
Why would anyone spend fuel instead of just getting a more reliable Zis Gun.

4 Feb 2020, 22:23 PM
#16
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


...
Why would anyone spend fuel instead of just getting a more reliable Zis Gun.


Because it has a superior barrage with veterancy and because he went T1?
4 Feb 2020, 22:30 PM
#17
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Feb 2020, 20:40 PMVipper
And we should have one again.


We WOULD have if people voted for performance nerfs for heavy tanks instead of a pathetically irrelevant 1CP increase to 12CPs.
4 Feb 2020, 22:33 PM
#18
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



We WOULD have if people voted for performance nerfs for heavy tanks instead of a pathetically irrelevant 1CP increase to 12CPs.

You do not have to tell me about the performance of Super heavies. I was probably the first to point out that their AOE was too good. Anyway this thread is about Stug/SU76 and there is little reason to talk about super heavies.
4 Feb 2020, 22:43 PM
#19
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

I think for the su76 making its barrage free again, but a vet ability might go better than a dramatic rework.

As for the StuG I think similarly improving TWP with vet or a buff via the battle phase system could work especially with the new balance of the aforementioned system.
5 Feb 2020, 01:15 AM
#20
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Feb 2020, 22:23 PMVipper

Because it has a superior barrage with veterancy and because he went T1?


If this was 2013 with higher cost in tech, sure. Do you really think people will go take the Su76 just because once they get vet 2 they will get a better barrage compared to the Zis?

Zis (all AT guns) "stocks" went up the moment indirect fire was less of a non brainer automatic units. The unit got many nerfs (deserved) with the aim of answering the Su76 spam.

Reminder that the point was: If we bring mediums back, we will see more Su76s. I'm saying that we HAD a medium meta and the Su76 didn't saw much use.
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