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russian armor

Locking OKW Tiger behind all SWS is super unfair

23 Jan 2020, 22:12 PM
#21
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3597 | Subs: 1



That's completely wrong.

Soviet complete tech-> 10 T1 + 15 T2 + 80 T3 + 90 T4 + 10 AT grenade + 5 Molotov - 20 Starting fuel = 190 total

OKW complete tech -> 40 BG + 60 Mech + 135 Schwer + 15 medic + 15 repair - 10 starting fuel = 255 total


Yeah your right, IS2 price can be adjusted I guess



Yeah because manpower is the limiting factor in who can get a heavy tank earlier :facepalm:


Manpower that allow you to get 2 more units on the field for the same tech, I'll say yes it is a factor to take in account.
23 Jan 2020, 22:13 PM
#22
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2020, 21:38 PMLago


The idea is to create a teching barrier between mediums and heavies. The problem is Soviet's tech is structured differently and it's a much smaller gap.

I can't really see what else they can do apart from making the KV-2 the rush-heavy and putting the IS-2 at CP14 with the Elefant and Jagdtiger. Crank up the cost of the heavies themselves, perhaps?

Simply add a seperate tech for Super heavy tanks (maybe all doctrinal vehicles)
23 Jan 2020, 22:17 PM
#23
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



Yeah because manpower is the limiting factor in who can get a heavy tank earlier :facepalm:

2 minutes is 2 minutes.
Does it matter all that much if you need to wait for fuel or mp?
23 Jan 2020, 22:18 PM
#24
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2020, 22:13 PMVipper
Simply add a seperate tech for Super heavy tanks (maybe all doctrinal vehicles)


That's apparently not an option.

The fact that these tech barriers vary so much just means using tech requirements like "all tech buildings need to be built" impossible because some factions will get screwed over. I can't believe the balance team didn't think about this before they wrote this preview.


I'll take uneven barriers over no barriers at all. That way only one faction keeps heavy rushing instead of four.
23 Jan 2020, 22:20 PM
#25
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2020, 22:12 PMEsxile


Yeah your right, IS2 price can be adjusted I guess



Manpower that allow you to get 2 more units on the field for the same tech, I'll say yes it is a factor to take in account.


What are the MP numbers on full Soviet and full OKW tech? You speak about two extra units so please provide the numbers that state OKW tech is 700 MP cheaper than it's Soviet counterpart.
23 Jan 2020, 22:26 PM
#26
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2020, 22:18 PMLago



I'll take uneven barriers over no barriers at all. That way only one faction keeps heavy rushing instead of four.


So you are in favour of deliberately unbalancing the game? Before OKW and Soviets needed the same amount of fuel to rush out Tiger and IS2. At least in that sense there was balance.

We do not need requirements like full tech but 11 CP for heavies and adjusted AOE so they don't wipe as much and aren't as insanely OP overall.
23 Jan 2020, 22:34 PM
#27
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

hw about removing the full tech and just increase CP ? they are back at the cp they were before and they came late already
23 Jan 2020, 22:44 PM
#28
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

hw about removing the full tech and just increase CP ? they are back at the cp they were before and they came late already


IMO 11 CP + AOE nerf would be ideal.

Much better than this idea to deliberately unbalance the game by giving Soviets their heavy tank long before the other factions can get theirs. (Apart from Ost because apparently the Ost changes aren't in the preview mod yet)
23 Jan 2020, 23:44 PM
#29
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 479

The issue is forcing all tech structures would be fine for all factions except Soviets because they have a cheap T1/T2. They would have to force Soviets to pay for all sidetech including 7-man upgrade(which should go back to 25 fuel from 20) to equal the cost the other faction would pay to tech all structures for a heavy tank. Soviets simply have the most streamlined tech tree at the moment and that allows them to rush the IS-2 too quickly.
24 Jan 2020, 00:31 AM
#30
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2020, 23:44 PMClarity
The issue is forcing all tech structures would be fine for all factions except Soviets because they have a cheap T1/T2. They would have to force Soviets to pay for all sidetech including 7-man upgrade(which should go back to 25 fuel from 20) to equal the cost the other faction would pay to tech all structures for a heavy tank. Soviets simply have the most streamlined tech tree at the moment and that allows them to rush the IS-2 too quickly.

And I suppose that also means couple of hundred of mp less for them too, right?
Because no other faction pays as much mp as soviets including tech and side costs together.
24 Jan 2020, 00:40 AM
#31
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

All this full tech bs is completely pointless.

If the IS2/Tiger/Pershing is too good for its price, simply make it more expensive.
24 Jan 2020, 01:54 AM
#32
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

Just keep the +2 cp increase.


Heavies are fine as late hero units.

The problem lies outside heavies if you are axis player.

Allies still counter heavies as they did.
24 Jan 2020, 03:17 AM
#33
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 959

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2020, 22:13 PMVipper
Simply add a seperate tech for Super heavy tanks (maybe all doctrinal vehicles)

This is a really good idea, so I went ahead and figured out some numbers (below).

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2020, 22:18 PMLago
That's apparently not an option.

Any reason why? If they want to standardize the timings and cost, giving each faction a "T5" tech with unique costs to offset their other tech differences is pretty much the easier/best way to go about it.


Anyway, numbers. The idea, as Vipper suggested, is to add a "T5" to every faction, who's purpose is entirely to unlock heavy tanks. It would work much like an OST BP, in that you'd research it at your main building, and it would cost some amount of MP and Fuel. The goal of this "T5 Tech" to standardize the amount of MP and Fuel every faction has to spend to reach heavy tanks.

As a result, our "T5 Tech" should cost:
OST: 265mp/35f
OKW: 0mp/0f (Free)
USF: 150mp/30f
Sov: 52.5mp/40f (let's call it 50mp)

Those numbers seem pretty fair to me, for a "heavy tank tech" unlock.
24 Jan 2020, 03:31 AM
#34
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

The problem with further contained heavies is wehr lack a reliable late game AI. Wehr is also less capable to deal with heavies AT.

In other words, too much cap on heavies affect wehr negatively the most.

Also i dont think tigers are that op outside it's late rof vet.

To push it beyond 30min mark, then it should perform better not worse. Coming up against vetted 60td and ATg. Why would you even use it?
24 Jan 2020, 03:44 AM
#35
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

If you guys think tiger rof vet is too good. Nerf it but also nerf equally good and cheaper 60td vet. At same time

For a period, most dont go tigers because it is too late and too limited in use. The AI reliability buff gave it a good spot

Heavy stall is a symptom of other sickness rather than click to win. And wehr is most sick here

I wont even call it a stall. Cause i feel the costs of t3 + tiger is same as allies t4
24 Jan 2020, 07:17 AM
#36
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 479

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jan 2020, 00:31 AMKatitof

And I suppose that also means couple of hundred of mp less for them too, right?
Because no other faction pays as much mp as soviets including tech and side costs together.


No, I am just theory crafting how they could fix heavies, it would be difficult to lock them all behind all tech like the KT though. Cons are still going to be 17 mp while upgraded as well so I think Soviets typically don't bleed MP as hard as other factions. Just making all heavies 12 CP would be a good start though to delay them by at least a few minutes. Not sure why people take posts personally.
24 Jan 2020, 19:07 PM
#37
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Any reason why? If they want to standardize the timings and cost, giving each faction a "T5" tech with unique costs to offset their other tech differences is pretty much the easier/best way to go about it.


Implementation time, apparently.

So you are in favour of deliberately unbalancing the game? Before OKW and Soviets needed the same amount of fuel to rush out Tiger and IS2. At least in that sense there was balance.

We do not need requirements like full tech but 11 CP for heavies and adjusted AOE so they don't wipe as much and aren't as insanely OP overall.


I'm in favour of fewer heavies. Making the heavy rush not viable for three more factions is an improvement in my book.
25 Jan 2020, 02:21 AM
#38
avatar of GenMe

Posts: 294



Yeah because manpower is the limiting factor in who can get a heavy tank earlier :facepalm:


yes It is, also you are over looking the fact the IS2 is crap, cant even go toe to toe with a panther, plus Its stuck behind crap commander choices.
25 Jan 2020, 08:42 AM
#39
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jan 2020, 02:21 AMGenMe


yes It is, also you are over looking the fact the IS2 is crap, cant even go toe to toe with a panther, plus Its stuck behind crap commander choices.


If your IS2 is losing toe to toe against a Panther, there's not enough L2P juice left to save you. It's literally the second best heavy tank in the game atm, behind the OKW artillery Tiger (which almost everyone agrees to be ridiculous because of the artillery ability).

The IS2 currently has 375 armour to the Panther's 260, more health, and both have similar pen and RoF. At your level it's unlikely that your opponents are utilising the Panther's 50 range to kite you perfectly. While the Panther is a good soft-counter to the IS2, it can virtually never beat it 1 vs 1 unless there's a significant skill or luck disparity involved.

Shock Rifle and Armoured Assault are both excellent commanders chock-full of good abilities. But apparently anything Soviet in your hands becomes crap - it's never about your countless terrible misplays and non-stop mistakes throughout the game.
25 Jan 2020, 09:13 AM
#40
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jan 2020, 02:21 AMGenMe


yes It is, also you are over looking the fact the IS2 is crap, cant even go toe to toe with a panther, plus Its stuck behind crap commander choices.


IS2 is so bad it wins tournament after tournament after tournament.

Yes so bad. Please buff IS2 armour to 400 and give 2 second reload.

Thank you balance team.
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