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russian armor

smoke canisters

8 Dec 2019, 00:43 AM
#41
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4126 | Subs: 3



I’m sure you’ll be thinking that when I shoot a smoke shell at your MG then overwhelm your AT infantry with Panzergrenadiers.


I mean if your MG is unsupported and your opponet pushes it successfully do you not deserve to lose it? This theorycrafting is like your opponet is brain dead. Your opponet has tanks? Where's yours? Your opponet is utilizing a doctrine? Don't you have one? Infantry to support your MGs and AT guns? mines? CQC infantry your opponet can't push? Like all this stuff is available to USF and UKF yet it isn't game breaking. Why is OST suddenly going to shatter the game?
8 Dec 2019, 00:52 AM
#42
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Okay, give Ost smoke shells. I’m on board.
8 Dec 2019, 01:23 AM
#43
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3386 | Subs: 1


Like all this stuff is available to USF and UKF yet it isn't game breaking. Why is OST suddenly going to shatter the game?


Only issue I see with that comparison is that it doesn't take into account that this ability is on ALL of your tanks

In the past someone had suggested making it a cheap upgrade that you needed to purchase for each vehicle. I liked that idea, as long as it's not exclusive with the mg
8 Dec 2019, 01:26 AM
#44
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4126 | Subs: 3



Only issue I see with that comparison is that it doesn't take into account that this ability is on ALL of your tanks

In the past someone had suggested making it a cheap upgrade that you needed to purchase for each vehicle. I liked that idea, as long as it's not exclusive with the mg


I mean it's not like it needs to be an all or nothing thing. It could easily be only available to certain units if need be.

Alternatively we could just add like a 3 second drop time on the current smoke so it doesn't act as an autoattack shield you use after you take a shot.
8 Dec 2019, 01:35 AM
#45
avatar of Thoton

Posts: 9

Smoke Canisters make me sad :(
8 Dec 2019, 03:27 AM
#46
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



I mean it's not like it needs to be an all or nothing thing. It could easily be only available to certain units if need be.

Alternatively we could just add like a 3 second drop time on the current smoke so it doesn't act as an autoattack shield you use after you take a shot.

Even 1 second so it's not a panic ability really. I like the sherman and brit tank smoke because it can be used defensively or offensively both with proper planning and micro. It reward the player for thinking on the fly and reacting to the battle dynamically. It raises the skill ceiling for the player vs panzer tac which hoists the floor. Even a 1 second delay then it requires more than a panic click for safety and requires a plan to disengage.
8 Dec 2019, 10:53 AM
#47
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2868 | Subs: 2



I mean it's not like it needs to be an all or nothing thing. It could easily be only available to certain units if need be.

Alternatively we could just add like a 3 second drop time on the current smoke so it doesn't act as an autoattack shield you use after you take a shot.

+1 to this.


Not sure why balance team has not implemented a delay yet or (as far as I know) given an argument why it would be a bad idea to implement.


What would also be a great ability is the Sherman smoke dischargers. You can keep driving if you micro well, use it offensively and defensively and your tank does not lose much DPS if you do it correctly. On the other hand it would be a nerf for players who are not able to use it and therefore create a slight learning curve and reward micro. The Smoke shell like the Cromwell's is also good, but way more situational as it causes your tank to rotate the turret and aquire a different target.
8 Dec 2019, 15:39 PM
#48
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1739

Come on now. Allies have doc access to crew repairs on all tanks that can fully repaired them. Should we add delays or cap at 70%?
Heck USF simply ignores this and get free repairs/popcap cheat. And yes USF and UKF have non-doc smoke.

Smoke canister is a skill shot that is required for Axis meta these days against oppressive 60Td. Nothing more nothing less.

ddd
8 Dec 2019, 17:09 PM
#49
avatar of ddd

Posts: 528 | Subs: 1

Smoke canister is a skill shot


No
8 Dec 2019, 17:39 PM
#50
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2868 | Subs: 2

Come on now. Allies have doc access to crew repairs on all tanks that can fully repaired them. Should we add delays or cap at 70%?

Completely different topic which is also partly wrong. Stay focused.


Heck USF simply ignores this and get free repairs/popcap cheat.

Completely different topic again. Also you should not compare faction design features with a change to a doctrinal ability that has nothing to do with said feature.


And yes USF and UKF have non-doc smoke.
Smoke canister is a skill shot that is required for Axis meta these days against oppressive 60Td. Nothing more nothing less.


They do, just like Axis tanks have Blitzkrieg as utility. And Allied smoke is an actual skill shot that requires targeting and micro and also stops your tank. Panzer Tactician is one click of a button.

If you want people to debate seriously with you, you should start debating on a serious basis as well and not repeat bad or plain wrong arguments over and over again.
8 Dec 2019, 18:04 PM
#51
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1739


Completely different topic which is also partly wrong. Stay focused.


Completely different topic again. Also you should not compare faction design features with a change to a doctrinal ability that has nothing to do with said feature.


They do, just like Axis tanks have Blitzkrieg as utility. And Allied smoke is an actual skill shot that requires targeting and micro and also stops your tank. Panzer Tactician is one click of a button.

If you want people to debate seriously with you, you should start debating on a serious basis as well and not repeat bad or plain wrong arguments over and over again.


60Td is also a click of a button.

Wehr smoke has been a faction design since day 1. Same with blitz. Every ability is a click button. Dont understand what you trying to say? Does clicking smoke or blitz, somehow teleports the tank from A to B and immune to fire? No, you still need to make the exit choice, you still can attack ground, drive a wrong turn, and the smoke doesnt cover you.

Usf crew repair while faction design, is broken. It was acceptable back when their tanks are more squishy, where Axis have armor that counts. Still the ability to exit, build new units, enter. Totally broken. While not the same topic, where are you on this? Why sound so high and mighty?
8 Dec 2019, 18:09 PM
#52
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1739


+1 to this.


Not sure why balance team has not implemented a delay yet or (as far as I know) given an argument why it would be a bad idea to implement.


What would also be a great ability is the Sherman smoke dischargers. You can keep driving if you micro well, use it offensively and defensively and your tank does not lose much DPS if you do it correctly. On the other hand it would be a nerf for players who are not able to use it and therefore create a slight learning curve and reward micro. The Smoke shell like the Cromwell's is also good, but way more situational as it causes your tank to rotate the turret and aquire a different target.


Ok smoke shots for P4 P5 P6, but you buff their turret tracking, their reload, their speeds, their moving accruacy.

There is your reason for smoke shells firing from turrets instead of their asses.
8 Dec 2019, 18:36 PM
#54
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1739

wow at the incoherent rumble of last 2 posts, just wow


There is nothing incoherent.
Just explaining there are other real broken issue than pan.tac.

As compared to wehr
Usf have what 5 nondoc smoker.
Ukf have also 4 nondoc smoker. One of which has 360 smoke that last longer, and this unit have high hp armor rotation and self healing. If any issue with smoke, Churchill is the first to look at.

Besides as other said, pantac is defensive but can be used offensive with more risk

Turret smoke is more offensive but you can use defensive to escape with a delay.

Everything works as it should execept Churchill shroud of invisibility.
8 Dec 2019, 18:49 PM
#55
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2868 | Subs: 2



60Td is also a click of a button.

Wehr smoke has been a faction design since day 1. Same with blitz. Every ability is a click button. Dont understand what you trying to say? Does clicking smoke or blitz, somehow teleports the tank from A to B and immune to fire? No, you still need to make the exit choice, you still can attack ground, drive a wrong turn, and the smoke doesnt cover you.

Usf crew repair while faction design, is broken. It was acceptable back when their tanks are more squishy, where Axis have armor that counts. Still the ability to exit, build new units, enter. Totally broken. While not the same topic, where are you on this? Why sound so high and mighty?


What are you talking about?
Stay on the topic, this has nothing to do with tank destroyers, gun range or whatever. PTac is instant activation at one click without even the need to stop, many other abilities require another click on the map, a unit aiming or the vehicle stopping to perform it. And that is also the main thing that this topic is about, not crew repairs, not other faction features.



Ok smoke shots for P4 P5 P6, but you buff their turret tracking, their reload, their speeds, their moving accruacy.

There is your reason for smoke shells firing from turrets instead of their asses.


Why? Or actually not. Open another topic for this, but if I remember correctly there was already a discussion not too long ago about Tiger I turret traversal.
9 Dec 2019, 16:34 PM
#56
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 303

this thread wasnt about 60 range TDs becouse

balancing 60 range TDs around Ptac is stupid, the same way Ptac shoudnt be balanced around 60 range TDs.

The ability is just a cheap get out of Jail card if an is2 goes head to head into an Elefant, he gets stun shotted and killed (like it should), if a tiger goes head to head into 2 Su 85 he can just pop Panzertac and get away.

Both players did a big tactical error, but one got punished another didnt, this simply doesnt reward the player who played better.

Saying Ptac is doctrinal isnt an argument whatsoever, cons PTRS was doctrinal (in only one commander) and used to kill mgs frontally and it got toned down...

and saying smoke shells would be op for wher is BIG BS since such thing exists its called stuka smoke drop and costs 40 mun while also prviding recon (this ability is balanced)
9 Dec 2019, 16:42 PM
#57
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 379 | Subs: 1



and saying smoke shells would be op for wher is BIG BS since such thing exists its called stuka smoke drop and costs 40 mun while also prviding recon (this ability is balanced)


Stuka smoke drop is in garbage doctrines. Panzer Tactician doctrines contain Tigers and G43s.

Also consider that Stuka smoke drop is a one-shot use. Smoke shells would be on every single vehicle.
9 Dec 2019, 16:44 PM
#58
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 303

so you woudnt mind pctac be replaced by stuka smoke drop? becouse that uses planning an assoult beforehand and executing it, insted of just pressing the button
9 Dec 2019, 16:46 PM
#59
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 379 | Subs: 1

Far from it. As I said earlier, as a Wehrmacht main I would love to see Panzer tactician be replaced with something that can be used offensively.

The question is how balanced that ability would turn out to be. It also opens a can of worms for Lightning War because now you have a commander that has Stuka CAS and an ability that can spot for it.
9 Dec 2019, 16:48 PM
#60
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 303

i also play wher on a regular basis, but i dont use the cheese button, while i can understand it on 222, it kind of gets stupid when a tiger ace vet 3 gets away just becouse of it, and the terrible RNG that attack ground is
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