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russian armor

Wehrm GRENS

21 Nov 2019, 06:31 AM
#1
avatar of VIGNASH

Posts: 176

Alrite its time we need to talk about this unit, I think this unit needs a rework in someway, cuz it has low health which makes it easy for one shot tanks, mortar, other inderect arty, has low DPS even with the LMG upgrade.

I get the LMG is for long range, but in 2v2 maps, that rarely happens grens mostly engange in mid-close range.

5-men upgrade is single doctrinal which is not ideal, more docs need to have it.

This poor Grens is no match against USF and UKF infantry early game until Pazgrens come to save the day!

So, to make wehrm early game viable, i think they need Free or 30 muni medics in HQ building like sov have, i think that would do.
21 Nov 2019, 06:57 AM
#2
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 571

Grens have a very powerfull t0 mg to back them up and keep rifles etc at range. Or supressed. They already have free healing in the halftrack.
Even 7 men cons can get one shotted, its because of clumping.
Pgrenz have been buffed to come a lot earlier then before.

So no. Grens are not the strongest inf indeed but they are not meant to act alone like rifles etc.

Are you mrgame2 or achapel? The poor grens statement makes me believe you are 1 of the 2
21 Nov 2019, 07:36 AM
#3
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1140

To me, grens need a drop in reinforcement cost. Wehr need improvement in cost efficiency.

Yes in 2v2, it is harder to stay still and behind cover. The dynamics of allies stronger infantry charging at grens is a disadvantage due to grens lower dps.

Besides the slow slow mg42 is too weak against vetted allies blob, no matter the spin.
21 Nov 2019, 09:35 AM
#4
avatar of Toxicfirebal

Posts: 61

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Nov 2019, 07:36 AMmrgame2
To me, grens need a drop in reinforcement cost. Wehr need improvement in cost efficiency.

Yes in 2v2, it is harder to stay still and behind cover. The dynamics of allies stronger infantry charging at grens is a disadvantage due to grens lower dps.

Besides the slow slow mg42 is too weak against vetted allies blob, no matter the spin.
are u trolling?
21 Nov 2019, 09:40 AM
#5
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 116

I have no issue with my grens losing 1v1 against the USF and UKF infantry in general as they are costlier units than grens. The close range buff that RM have gotten in response to trying to balance them out is total bullshit and should be undone because nothing was done with grens.

What I do have a problem with is the current state of grens vs. cons. This used to be an even matchup. Cons used to be early game initiative tool and their powerspike would slowly go down as the game progressed, ostheer grens got lmgs. Now When they can get nondoctrinal 7man upgrade they dominate the late game also over what is supposed to be late game faction with the only T4 in game.

Conscripts get a late game non-doctrinal triple buff upgrade in the form of 7man squad. This bullshit is unacceptable unless balancing measures are made in order to ensure that ostheer mainline gets the same treatment in the late game.
21 Nov 2019, 13:38 PM
#6
avatar of blancat

Posts: 788

are u trolling?


he is playing coh 2.5

So we cant understand his opinion
21 Nov 2019, 15:48 PM
#7
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2636

Grenadiers are perfectly fine as they are. There is absolutely no need to buff them.
21 Nov 2019, 16:22 PM
#8
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1341 | Subs: 3

I have no issue with my grens losing 1v1 against the USF and UKF infantry in general as they are costlier units than grens. The close range buff that RM have gotten in response to trying to balance them out is total bullshit and should be undone because nothing was done with grens.

What I do have a problem with is the current state of grens vs. cons. This used to be an even matchup. Cons used to be early game initiative tool and their powerspike would slowly go down as the game progressed, ostheer grens got lmgs. Now When they can get nondoctrinal 7man upgrade they dominate the late game also over what is supposed to be late game faction with the only T4 in game.

Conscripts get a late game non-doctrinal triple buff upgrade in the form of 7man squad. This bullshit is unacceptable unless balancing measures are made in order to ensure that ostheer mainline gets the same treatment in the late game.


The problem isn't really Grenadiers in this match-up, but the 7 men upgrade being too efficient. It becomes impossible to bleed Conscript builds in the late game, so you're pretty much forced into going Tiger and hope you win the tank war.

I'd suggest changing the 7 men upgrade to be freely available at T3 and reducing the munitions cost slightly, but removing the reload/cooldown bonus in cover. This would keep the upgrade at 7 men, lower reinforcement cost and faster veterancy gain.
21 Nov 2019, 17:30 PM
#9
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 281



The problem isn't really Grenadiers in this match-up, but the 7 men upgrade being too efficient. It becomes impossible to bleed Conscript builds in the late game, so you're pretty much forced into going Tiger and hope you win the tank war.

I'd suggest changing the 7 men upgrade to be freely available at T3 and reducing the munitions cost slightly, but removing the reload/cooldown bonus in cover. This would keep the upgrade at 7 men, lower reinforcement cost and faster veterancy gain.


This.

21 Nov 2019, 17:35 PM
#10
avatar of YeltsinDeathBrigades

Posts: 60

There is no problem with grenadiers.
There is a problem with HMG42 crew. The HMG itself is very good, but crew is 1.25 RA (or it is a target size, always mixing them up) so it is too easy to wipe it out.
21 Nov 2019, 17:44 PM
#11
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8290 | Subs: 1


The problem isn't really Grenadiers in this match-up, but the 7 men upgrade being too efficient...

Agree.
21 Nov 2019, 18:29 PM
#12
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2636



The problem isn't really Grenadiers in this match-up, but the 7 men upgrade being too efficient. It becomes impossible to bleed Conscript builds in the late game, so you're pretty much forced into going Tiger and hope you win the tank war.

I'd suggest changing the 7 men upgrade to be freely available at T3 and reducing the munitions cost slightly, but removing the reload/cooldown bonus in cover. This would keep the upgrade at 7 men, lower reinforcement cost and faster veterancy gain.


Feel free to remove the 7th man upgrade and just give the bonus to rof and the faster xp gain to T0 Stock conscripts

AS WAS ORIGINALLY SUGGESTED
21 Nov 2019, 18:33 PM
#13
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 889

5- upgrade OR lmg upgrade

never booth
21 Nov 2019, 23:44 PM
#14
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 186

My suggestion, which I will continue to push for, is for grens to lose some RA in exchange for more DPS, particularly at range.

HMG42 is great and all that, but grens aren't able to protect it, nor are they able to protect the other crew weapons, which makes OST the weakest of all the armies when it comes to team weapons. Sure the weapons themselves are great, but the weak infantry indirectly makes for weak crew weapon play. This is why you rarely see heavy crew weapon play by OST actually winning games. At best you can afford an MG, and a PaK. More than that tends to be a donation.

It doesn't matter that the HMG42 is great when a flanking rifle squad can just ignore the gren squad protecting it, and decrew the MG.

The other issues with weak grens is map control, and lack of punishing DPS. Grens have a 'neither hot nor cold' solution to the 4 man squad size. Their DPS isn't on par with the larger squads, nor is their survivabilty. They're just marginally better models that don't do anything well. What this means is that Grens can't capitalize on bad play. Other squads can come in and cap a defended cut-off without really losing anything since it takes *forever* for grens to win at their preferred range. You can't move in to contest the cap since then you'll just lose the fight. To top it off the anemic damage of grens means that even if you do move some squads onto the retreat path, they won't wipe the squad. This results in even good OST play slowly getting pushed off the map since they can't cap under fire, nor can they threaten capping squads.

Fixing grens in a balanced manner requires them to either specialize in strong RA, or strong damage. While giving grens great RA in exchange for damage could work, it doesn't really fit the character of an army trying to blitz it's way through fights while avoiding positional attrition fights at all costs. Removing some RA in exchange for better damage does fit the character of the army. Grens can capitalize on situations opened up by the team weapons, but will lose if the fight deteriorates into attrition fighting.
22 Nov 2019, 04:51 AM
#15
avatar of 13greed47

Posts: 54

are u trolling?





i guess those horde of grens and panzergren were a product of my mind then
22 Nov 2019, 05:09 AM
#16
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1140

Most top players have use call in infantry or 5 man upgrade.

The base grens are terrible even with Lmg upgrade. And porkloin is right.

You mostly cannot wipe with grens.

Even the wehr supposed combine arms needs, dont work well today. Mg42 is so bad past the early game, wehr infantry are in a liability spot unless you choose 5 man call ins.
22 Nov 2019, 05:26 AM
#17
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 571

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Nov 2019, 05:09 AMmrgame2
Most top players have use call in infantry or 5 man upgrade.

The base grens are terrible even with Lmg upgrade. And porkloin is right.

You mostly cannot wipe with grens.

Even the wehr supposed combine arms needs, dont work well today. Mg42 is so bad past the early game, wehr infantry are in a liability spot unless you choose 5 man call ins.


The riflegrenades disagrees with you. Their better then most long range dps does as well as grens are the best when it comes to picking of models/the last model on retreat.

Cons survive more just as rifles volks sections but they dont retreat wipe as grens with small arms at longer ranges. Volks are a close second at long range.
22 Nov 2019, 06:51 AM
#18
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 186



The riflegrenades disagrees with you. Their better then most long range dps does as well as grens are the best when it comes to picking of models/the last model on retreat.

Cons survive more just as rifles volks sections but they dont retreat wipe as grens with small arms at longer ranges. Volks are a close second at long range.


Grens are essentially a worse version of volks. Volks individually have a 4/5 damage profile of grens, but an extra member. Grens would need around .8 RA instead of the .91 RA they have now to reach parity.

How does this make them better at wipes?
22 Nov 2019, 11:51 AM
#19
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 571



Grens are essentially a worse version of volks. Volks individually have a 4/5 damage profile of grens, but an extra member. Grens would need around .8 RA instead of the .91 RA they have now to reach parity.

How does this make them better at wipes?


Volks are dps wise a worse version of grens, but a more durable version as well.

Stg is better at close mid range. Inc nade does not wipe in 1 sec it does damage over time. Lmg42 is long range the rifle nades does its damage the indtant it hits. Gren being a bit better at long range have a higher chance of killing the last retreating model. Ofcourse at closer range the rest is better
22 Nov 2019, 11:56 AM
#20
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2042


Volks are dps wise a worse version of grens, but a more durable version as well.


They have the exact same DPS but Volks have the advantage of only losing 20% DPS per model drop while Grenadiers lose 25% DPS per model drop.

(Without weapon upgrades)
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