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Guard Rifle QOL Improvement

Guards - Spawn without PTRS?
Option Distribution Votes
41%
56%
4%
Total votes: 27
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
14 Nov 2019, 10:51 AM
#1
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

Classic Guards - not the airborne kind, specifically.

I wanted to gauge community feeling on this in the most accessible way I could. Is this a huge change? No. It's a small, modest proposal that I hope everyone could get behind as a QoL improvement for the Soviets.

Have Guards spawn in without their PTRS rifles, and be able to upgrade for free


Impact assessment:
  • Guards have slightly better AI when first purchased
  • Guards can make use of their good moving accuracy on their Mosins without 2 weapon carrying models permanently being unable to fire
  • DP upgraded guards without PTRS rifles are no longer a pinata party of weapon drops
  • Potentially allows guards to scavenge more weapons should drops be avilable


UPDATES:
  • Guard rifles remain at 16 damage, and may want to be tweaked to 14 with comparable DPS to avoid a tommies mk2 situation
  • Guards starting with 4 weapon slots may want to be changed - PTRS rifles being an upgrade that adds an additional 2 could be worthwhile, or starting with 2 and both weapon upgrades adding 1 extra slot each


What does everybody think?
14 Nov 2019, 11:04 AM
#2
avatar of SneakEye
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 813 | Subs: 5

FYI:
Guards have 4 weapon slots. 2 are consumed with the PTRS rifles and the other 2 are available for the DP-28 upgrade or weapons from the ground.

If they spawn without PTRS rifles, then they can take 4 weapons of choice which can cause all kind of balance issues.
14 Nov 2019, 11:11 AM
#3
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

  • Guards have slightly better AI when first purchased


It would actually be quite a significant increase. Not so much because of the DPS increase (Guards Mosin Nagants aren't that great) but because they'd have 6x 16 damage rifles that would have a high potential of oneshotting models (5x 16dmg = 80hp of one model) to immediately swing engagements in their favor.

Infantry Sections' Lee Enfields were specifically changed because of this issue, and they had only 5x 16dmg rifles, and their AI performance took quite a noticeable hit despite being compensated with higher accuracy to keep similar DPS.
14 Nov 2019, 11:14 AM
#4
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2181 | Subs: 2

I think this is ok. But it may be to make them more specialized. To make sure that the Guard could buy
- or 2 DP-27, with the 1st ability of the veteran "Suppressing Fire" - something like the Rear Echelon analogue
- or 2 Bazooka, namely Bazooka because the USSR has too many PTRS, Penalties with PTRS generally make the Guard senseless. Which has always been synergy with T1. And Antitank 1st veteran’s ability to “shoot at weak points” slows down the speed of the movement or does more damage to tanks. Maybe give AT mines with Bazooka (use the renamed Wehrmacht AT mines)
14 Nov 2019, 11:17 AM
#5
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 177

This might be just my biased axis fanboyism speaking but a 6 man squad that can be equipped with 4 lmgs and has access to variety of abilities could be considered under some circumstances "OP".

If change is needed to make this unit an "either/or" AI/AT unit then the balanced approach would be to make decision between 3 DPs or 3 PTRS and lose either hit the ground or button ability depending on the upgrade decision.
14 Nov 2019, 11:34 AM
#6
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1



It would actually be quite a significant increase. Not so much because of the DPS increase (Guards Mosin Nagants aren't that great) but because they'd have 6x 16 damage rifles that would have a high potential of oneshotting models (5x 16dmg = 80hp of one model) to immediately swing engagements in their favor.

Infantry Sections' Lee Enfields were specifically changed because of this issue, and they had only 5x 16dmg rifles, and their AI performance took quite a noticeable hit despite being compensated with higher accuracy to keep similar DPS.


A good point I had otherwise overlooked - the proposal could need to be more sophisticated than first thought.

Would it help to give them the conscripts treatment - less damage, more accuracy? A six shot volley is always going to be a risk of a model snipe, I suppose.

If it ends up needing a lower accuracy, faster firing/reloading guard squad to help minimise instant volley drops, it could be a decidedly more complex ask.

Hmm.

FYI:
Guards have 4 weapon slots. 2 are consumed with the PTRS rifles and the other 2 are available for the DP-28 upgrade or weapons from the ground.

If they spawn without PTRS rifles, then they can take 4 weapons of choice which can cause all kind of balance issues.


This is already possible in some circumstances, especially if you don't bother to rebuy a dropped PTRS and have a Vickers halftrack in a team game, but spawning empty handed would make it easier.

I believe it could be changed quite easily to make the PTRS upgrade also provide +2 weapon slots, and allow guards to spawn with the traditional two?

14 Nov 2019, 11:35 AM
#7
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

Guards do not need any more buffs.
14 Nov 2019, 12:04 PM
#8
avatar of Cresc

Posts: 378

Can't the drop rate simply be adjusted to make it less likely to gift free DP28/PTRS to the opponent?
Guards don't need much changing, if it's not broken? Don't fix it.


jump backJump back to quoted post14 Nov 2019, 11:35 AMVipper
Guards do not need any more buffs.


when was the last buff?
14 Nov 2019, 12:10 PM
#9
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

they already have lower chance to drop weapons, people just like to bring out old problem
14 Nov 2019, 12:29 PM
#10
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

they already have lower chance to drop weapons, people just like to bring out old problem


That's not all it's about - that's just a happy coincidence.

Giving them a mosin set out of the gate is about making guards more flexible when you first buy them, before you invest in the DPs and have the vet to bed down into firing positions.

It's a small change with a number of modest benefits for Soviet play without making guards any more powerful at their peak - when on the floor with a pair of LMGs and a stack of vet.
14 Nov 2019, 12:43 PM
#11
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Nov 2019, 12:04 PMCresc
...
when was the last buff?

Units should not be buffed contentiously.
When was the last time they where nerfed?




That's not all it's about - that's just a happy coincidence.

Giving them a mosin set out of the gate is about making guards more flexible when you first buy them, before you invest in the DPs and have the vet to bed down into firing positions.

It's a small change with a number of modest benefits for Soviet play without making guards any more powerful at their peak - when on the floor with a pair of LMGs and a stack of vet.

They do not need to be more flexible, they are already one of the top long range AI units and they can damage vehicles.
14 Nov 2019, 12:47 PM
#12
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

LMG airborne 6men with 2 LMGs and suppression ability are balanced.
Falls with 4 LMGs, camo, nukenade, crazy vet bonuses and faust are balanced.
Guards with 2 shite LMGs and bad nade are OP af.

ROFLMAO
14 Nov 2019, 12:50 PM
#13
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

LMG airborne 6men with 2 LMGs and suppression ability are balanced.
Falls with 4 LMGs, camo, nukenade, crazy vet bonuses and faust are balanced.
Guards with 2 shite LMGs and bad nade are OP af.

ROFLMAO

Guards where OP and dominated the meta, if you they do not see action now it is because of Power creep. Continuing to buff units to make them attractive simply leads to continues buff circle and to snowballing. Units need nerfs not buffs.

(LMG airborne have 3 LMGs not 2)
14 Nov 2019, 13:00 PM
#14
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Nov 2019, 12:50 PMVipper

Guards where OP and dominated the meta, if you they do not see action now it is because of Power creep. Continuing to buff units to make them attractive simply leads to continues buff circle and to snowballing. Units need nerfs not buffs.

(LMG airborne have 3 LMGs not 2)


LMG airborne have 2 LMGs, not 3. Guards Airborne are the ones with 3 LMGs.

Guards were OP is not an argument and neither is nerfing other units since the balance team has shown time and time again that they do not subscribe to that line of thinking.

Like I said, if Falls and Paras are balanced, Guards deserve a buff.
14 Nov 2019, 13:08 PM
#15
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

QOL stands for 'Quality of Life', and refers to changes that make the game more user friendly without affecting the balance.

Making PTRSses optional is NOT a QoL change. It's a balance change, and a hefty one at that.

A mod should probably rename this thread.
14 Nov 2019, 13:14 PM
#16
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


LMG airborne have 2 LMGs, not 3. Guards Airborne are the ones with 3 LMGs.

The USF are called "Paratroopers" not airborne, so you can understand where the confusion come from.


Guards were OP is not an argument and neither is nerfing other units since the balance team has shown time and time again that they do not subscribe to that line of thinking.

Like I said, if Falls and Paras are balanced, Guards deserve a buff.

Not really Neither Falls nor Lmg Paras have an AT weapon. They are purly AI units and comparison with Guards is simply misleading.

Well regardless what of balance team's line of thinking (which they have not expressed clearly and I doubt there is actually only one across all members and Relic), one has to point out what is a good direction and what not. And continues buff is not a good direction, it is as simply as that.
14 Nov 2019, 15:03 PM
#17
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Nov 2019, 13:08 PMLago
QOL stands for 'Quality of Life', and refers to changes that make the game more user friendly without affecting the balance.

Making PTRSses optional is NOT a QoL change. It's a balance change, and a hefty one at that.

A mod should probably rename this thread.


Except Guards drop PTRSs like crazy, so you’re gonna end up with just DPs anyway. It is a QOL and balance change.
14 Nov 2019, 15:43 PM
#18
avatar of Blebfeesh

Posts: 129

Guards are in a good spot. For you idea to be implemented, a whole lot more would need to be tweaked and changed so that the're AI wasn't completely unreasonable as a result. The only time I have struggled when using them is when vs falls, and everything struggles against falls.
14 Nov 2019, 16:12 PM
#19
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Except Guards drop PTRSs like crazy, so you’re gonna end up with just DPs anyway. It is a QOL and balance change.


No, it's not. They're mutually exclusive.

Adding Prioritise Vehicles is a QoL change. Increasing the damage a tank does is a balance change.
14 Nov 2019, 16:13 PM
#20
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

Guards are in a good spot. For you idea to be implemented, a whole lot more would need to be tweaked and changed so that the're AI wasn't completely unreasonable as a result. The only time I have struggled when using them is when vs falls, and everything struggles against falls.


You do realise the difference in DPS between the PTRS and a guard mosin is 0.5 at long range and less than 3 point blank, right?

By the time you get your MGs and are making use of firing positions, it nearly irrelevant. It only makes guards less pinata if you don't want the PTRS, and better on the move (where they still aren't anything compared to their stationary firepower).

It would hopefully open up early game guards as a mobile flanking squad. Perhaps even something worth skipping the MGs on to use to push out weaker squads like Ostruppen or AT pfusis.
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