Profile of Serrith

doesnt change the fact that soviet teching is still retardedly expensive when contrasted to any other faction manpower wise... which hurts the argument of SOV being able to control the map due to having more units...

Wasn't disagreeing, was pointing out issues in someone else's argument. As for soviets not being able to control the map despite more units... well id say that unit count doesn't always necessarily equate to stronger map control anyway- clown car flamer vs non PF okw is a good example of this.

That said, where soviets really suffer in mp expenditure is medics, tier 3 and tier 4. Unfortunately delaying tier 3 timing is currently necessary due to how powerful t70 is. I think I'd like to see tier 3 costs reduced and T70 require an unlock. This would help T34s hit the field earlier and make M5 more viable while not changing the T70 timing.

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A more realistic(and actual meta build) would be:
1x Pio
2x Mg42
BP 1

For a total of 820mp/40 fuel.

Or maybe a common osttruppen build:
1x MG42
3x Osttruppen
BP 1

960mp and 40 fuel



So hypothetical:
T1
1x Sniper
2x Conscripts

1000mp 10fuel for the same number of squads as the first build but less than the second.
Or 3x conscripts for an extra squad to outnumber/match ost squad count, but your MP cost has jumped to 1240 vs ost with 820/960.

Or if we go clown car build:
T1
1x CE(for flamethrower and early capping)
Clown car
2x Conscripts

We end up with 1000mp and 25fuel, though we get the car as well.



I don't know why you would list an example of a gren build which are not supposed to feature pgrens, when the builds that actually rush pgrens don't utilize tier 1 at all.

Did you not know these were the typical pgren rush builds?




The exception I mentioned before was a build with Urban Defense I like to use:
4x CE
T2
In base forward retreat point(for reduced MP cost, and additional CP)

1040mp 30(?)fuel, don't recall exact fuel for FRP. You get tech, and healing and 5 squads-and hopefully you have gotten enough CP where you can grab shock troop or M-42 if needed. No conscripts means no munitions dumps which means upgraded CE flamethrower spam and the number of squads means rapid map control.

But I need to stress this is NOT a meta build and really relies on surprise and unfamiliarity from the opponent rather than being a truly viable build.

When you elaborate it like that it makes total sense. But if you require T1 building then you actually punish off meta strats (ass grens and 2pio\2mgs). And I do think that PGs timing against SOV is just too strong (other allied factions are fine). That's why this topic was started. So it's very tricky to come up with an elegant solution to this.

And this is all about 1v1. In team modes this is a non-issue imo.

I agree for the most part.

Only thing is that tier 1+BP1 is cheaper then tier 2+BP2 so off meta builds would be better off with pgrens requiring(or built in) tier 1 then requiring(or built in) tier 2.

This is a solid idea right here

How? You end up with the same timing issue. Being able to build pgrens and light vehicles at the same time isn't a concern, its more being able to afford them back to back in this particular case. If both cant be purchased around the same time due to cost, then players are just going to go for the light vehicle.

Having pgrens require tier 1 or even being built in Tier 1 makes more sense for delaying them.

Why did the balance team move pgrens to t0 if the buffs were sufficient to keep them in t2?

Pretty much this. Plus none of the buffs they recieced directly helps them at their new timing.

The reason nobody bought them was because they arrived at a time when you couldn't afford to skimp on early game infantry squads like grens so you ended up having 4 grens and not really room to buy pgrens. The added mp cost of having to buy tier 2 first meant that you could either pick up a pgren or get a light vehicle and light vehicles have greater shock value.

Imo moving them back to tier 2 would just cause the same issues as before.