Sent Engi to cap while 2nd build T1, went for clown car first to reduce bleed. My last several matches OKW rushes the same gas as me. As I send engi to cap gas I see cap flashing so I redirect to cap muni while other engi goes to free gas. Clown car is sent to harass Sturmpioneer which I guessed irritated him so he chased with most of his army. I escape and repair then add flames, push him back but he gets off a snare. He rushes for the car and I rush to defend, I make it out alive and decide to get SMGs.
Repair the car and once more rush in, I take the snare on purpose since I see his Sturm are low health. Wasn't able to get the wipe but they dropped models, however his VG did get wiped while he was trying to get his MG to help out. Car is still alive so I repair it once more and rush his cutoff, notice his Schwerer building in progress so I take the snare to destroy the building with the Penal. He cancels it which is still good for me since he has to call in another truck and delay his tank even more. I send my T34 and Penal blob to his gas which is defended by single Sturm, I think he was trying to stall me until his Raks got there but I got the wipe. I then call in Airborne to decap his muni and give me some recon. His Schwerer catches me and kills a couple models on retreat which he tries to wipe with STG VG but I had my SMG Penal hiding and ended up wiping him. He quits at this point.
Game pretty much went my way once I got the first wipe, I think if he would have got Flak he could have slowed down me down a lot due to trading a Penal from AI to AT. Since he didn't I was able to snowball him.
EDIT: Title should say 2 wipes, didn't get the 3rd with SMGs, game over at 14 mins.
The issue isn't the ability itself, it's the synergy with allied units that makes it absurdly strong. When used behind enemy tanks (especially during a dive), it instantly creates what is in effect a 'wall' which retreating vehicles can't cross. This amount of map control on a single ability is just far too much, especially when the 'activation' period is so short (i.e. the time between clicking and the first shell dropping).
Consider that during an allied charge, Axis tanks will usually need to reverse in order to maintain their armor advantage, since long-range pen isn't great on allied mediums, or because they're being zoned out by 60-range TDs. Reversing, however, places them inside the AT Overwatch, which will result in massive amounts of damage taken. Going forward also isn't an option, as it means being surrounded by allied tanks, usually giving flanking advantages - and standing still isn't much better. Even worse, slower axis tanks can effectively be 'deleted' by this ability, with no opportunity for counter play, or even a reaction because of this 'instant wall' effect.
My suggestion would be to keep the stats the same, but increase the delay before the first shell drops by a significant margine. As a result, it keeps its power about the same, and still works well as a defensive ability, but it could no longer create impassable zones instantly during diving attacks.
I am confused by your statement, are you saying an allied charge when they caught you out of position or they charged your main army. If you are caught out of position you deserve to lose the tanks, its 200 muni plus whatever they threw at you on top of flanking you. If you are talking about your main army you should have snares, mines, shreks, at guns to slow them down. The ability needs sight so even if they call it in behind you it needs sight.
Now in 3v3 or 4v4 where one of them might have recon/flares then there aint much you can do but that is the nature of bigger game modes. If you increase the initial delay you would need to significantly ramp up subsequent drops so DPS stays the same. That would be even worse for a single snared tank or a well timed ram due to the drops focusing on one tank instead of spreading out to all in the circle.
Not the best game, got really one sided about mid game but was proud of my SMG Penal kills.
Looked at his commander choices, knew he was going Sturmtiger but I still went Airborne since I wanted SMG penals. Opened with engi/clown car/ X3 penal. Felt there was little pressure so I went for his gas, didn't see much going on so I assumed he was dropping 1 infantry squad to rush the Scout car a little quicker. I bled him as he pushed up on my car while keeping look out, I wiped a low VG squad on retreat and started to put him on the back foot. Got out PTRS penals and zoned out his car best I could while capping most of the map.
Got my SMG penals and caught a Sturm Pio with some damage and got the chase wipe. He snared me while I chased but I think he was caught off guard by the SMG Penal and tried to focus me down. He messed up and got to close to the PTRS squad and lost his car, I am pretty much starting to snowball with Dshka and LMG guards. I bleed him hard, I think I got 4 T34 before he got his first tank, lost 1 to Rak wall.
He keeps my tanks zoned out due to Rak wall but sends out his P4J to attack right side of map. MY PTRS squad was waiting behind some bushes and got the snare off plus shots. Used AT strafe to make sure it died but pretty much my Penal solo'd his tank.
I am now just bleeding him out when he attacks Victory points and force retreats with Katy. I later 4v1 his tank and win the game in time.
Thoughts:
IF you are very aggressive with Penal squad and give a high Vet unit SMG it can be the strongest SMG unit at CP2/3 timings. Obviously Shocks scale better but Vet 2 Penals with their increased accuracy along with Vet1 ability makes them potent in a clown car.
I dont know if it is just me but sometimes I feel the Dshka just sits there and doesn't fire, sometimes its a beast other times it is useless.
Ah yes once more you do not have any arguments and thus attack the person instead of the point.
From the same patch notes:
Now unless you want to argue that Ostheer did not receive major buffs because they could not cope with USF what you have post does not contradict what I posted.
USF owned Ostheer on release badly the same way OKW owned Soviet on release (only soviet come up with maxim spam to cope).
I want even bother responding to rest of toxic comment and I will simply say that you theory the USF where bad from release and only become worse with every patch is simply silly.
"Overall, win percentages for all factions (see above) are pretty close to 50%. USF is most successful with an overall win percentage of about 52%, whereas OH seems to get the short end of the stick. On the allied side, the Soviets wins least. "
Just going off memory OKW and USF were OP when originally released. USF had weak tanks but AT Loiter and Rifle company made up for that.
I loved OKW when it first came out, their tech structure allowed a JP4 early as hell. I would just make medic and mechanized rush out JP4 along with Falls doctrine. All bases cover and with good play you had TD out before your opponent got tanks.
I'm not exaggerating how weak they are, I'm just stating that they are weaker then volks in early game with a lot of consequences for OKW player.
Speaking of game you mentioned, its not contradicts with what I was saying like at all. Isuldur went full PF oppening and had pretty much 0 map control, had to avoid fighting and had to blob his PFs early into the game untill his G43 started to appear and his support units came in, only after that he started slowly recover from full PF build.
Its not the argument its the fact of how balance team made them to begin with. And I said it multiple times, I'm not a fan of it either.
We must be talking about to different games. In the early game at about 2 1/2 mins the first big skirmish happens which is started by the 2 Rifleman squads attacking 1 PF squad which leads to both players blobbing their infantry to the center of the map with 3 Rifles vs 3 PF and Sturm with USF full retreat. Before the skirmish they had similar map and Isildur starting to decap. The next decent skirmish is at 3min40secs with 2 PF vs 2 Rifles and 1 RE, with PF retreating.
This must be the point that you are referring to. Now at almost 5 mins USF has made LT with MG on the way while OKW only had 4 units(3PF and 1 Sturm). No matter what units you have map control will be lost due to numbers.
At 5min 50secs the FlakTrak hits and the first G43 upgrades about 10 secs later with HMG on the way. He then wrestles control of the map back. At no point was loss of map due to underperformance of early PF. He took a risk and devoted his resources on early shock of Flak which makes sense due to how well it synergizes with PF.
Either way, I think we are in agreement that it is a bad design.
Forget about G43 for a second. PFs are 270MP 0CP unit, from the get go they are weaker then volks at all ranges and have slightly better DPS at longer ranges, dont have access to sandbags. Lack of mid\close range DPS (which is not exeptional on volks aswell) means that your best bet with PFs is to camp in cover without moving much and hope that if enemy will somehow charge you, you will be able to hold your ground.
Volks on the other hand while not having super close\mid range DPS, they can still deliver a punch if charged badly, they can construct green cover and they can force enemy out of cover. In other words, in situations where volks have problems PFs have x2 problems + their own problems.
This is all about early. PFs arent underpowered\bad unit, but in early game they are intentionally handycapped because they will get G43s and G43 is so powerfull because they are rather weak early for the price. See the idea behind their balance?
In 1v1 and somewhat in 2v2 its a significant disadvantages, in 3v3 and 4v4 its not. And thats the reason why they are problem in big teamgames and lesser problem in smaller games. Because the core idea behind them is not working for every gamemode.
Seriously, stop exaggerating how weak they are to start the game. I understand you said that ELITE players can overcome PF weak opening yet you also said no one would ever go PF only. Zaney just posted a match between Isuldur and IncaUna and went full PF build which traded well EARLY with Rifles. Despite the fact that they cant build cover, have worse DPS and cost more he held similar map which he then used to leverage a Flaktrak so he could cover and start to upgrade his units.
We are in agreement that the unit composition in regards to DPS is the issue(G43 models) but the argument that they start weak so they need to be strong later makes no sense. How long are they "weak" is it until they get the G43 upgrades? Is it when they get Vet? The unit can usually start upgrading at 5-6 mins from start of game. Even games can go from 20-60 mins so it spends a fraction of its time being weak and most of the time overperforming. If it is with Vet, all they have to do is join the horde and earn some easy Vet.
By the way the game is a fairly good watch up until MID/Late game. I think it shows how bad Rifle company scales along with the Stuart which I think has to do with lack of decent indirect.
the bleed is only about the late game. At this stage anyone with access to elite infantry usually has a few squads. So what you are saying is true, it just doesn't help at that point. Nerfs would do more, but then we have a problem with elite infantry not fulfilling their role and then is it just some discriminitory okw nerf or axis nerf? Fighting shocks, commandos, gaurds, and paras are no picnic either. I think this is why coh1 had upkeep upgrades for USA. They knew usa was going to lose the efficiency war in that game. knights cross could get to unkillable level just like obers, the best you could do is make them retreat if you can't 1 shot them with arty or a vehicle. Even then you need to outnumber the squad 2 or 3 to 1 and you will STILL take severe losses. So the upkeep change helps, I don't know how well 6 man rifle squads are going to sit with the community and then there is the issue of getting pop capped, which happens to me a lot. The pop cap is why efficiency matters, you need to be effective with your 100 cap.
Instead of 6th man what do you think about a Rec Acc reduction of 5-10% for all infantry. That way they become more efficient and doesn't promote only Rifle builds.
Well you should check 1v1 yellow cover to yellow cover PF vs any other mainline mid range and long range. And also take into account the starting unit for OKW which is Sturmpio which annihilates every other mainline unit close to medium range.
And also check https://coh2.serealia.ca/# the stats of vet0 PF and compare them to other mainlines before saying that PFs are utter garbage. Utter garbage for garbage player definitely.
I just want to point out that the website hasn't been updated for any of the 2021 patches. I don't believe it changes OKW and OST too much but Allied infantry has changed.
Thats not true. Guards, grens and paras become significantly better with weapon upgrades, but they are not weak without them considering timings. PF in early game is objectively the weakest inf in the game considering their price.
Yeah but why? I mean you either go full house PF or 1 Volk (for sandbag) and 3 PF. There is no reason to mix volks with PFs like what so ever, simply because you will end up with a handicapped army anyway.
The only somewhat realistic scenario is 3 volks and 1 PF later upgraded with Schrecks maybe. Ofcouse exluding situations where OKW go full retard and gets like up to 5 inf squads.
This is actually funny question what is easier to deal with PF blobs or Obers. As I was saying previously obersts are uttery retarded unit, expecially in teamgames. Because the only justification of its overpowered nature - the shit DPS scaling of Volks past mid game.
Assault Guards and Airborne Guards without upgrades are literal penal squad levels of damage at CP2, reg guards are penal with 2 PTRS so yes they are weak for their timings. They are literally designed to be upgraded. Paras get slightly better guns and 1 more man than rifles but cost significantly more and come at CP3. At that point your vetted Rifles would be stronger to significantly if they have Bars so the only point in buying them is to upgrade them.
Your are vastly exaggerating how weak PF are to start the game, both Isildur and Kimbo used a 2VG/2PF opening against USF and both won decisively. They did it in the AECOH tournament, which leads me to believe that these ELITE players thought that the "weak" start was worth it for later gains.
EDIT: Rewatching, they both also upgraded their PF squad first my guess being other than DPS the extra 7 sight helps immensely when screening for the FlakTrack.
Truthfully, I find Obers easier to deal with as a T1 Soviet player and USF player. I can focus down Ober squads and if caught out of position they have no snare. However it is impossible to focus down PF blobs due to the way the unit DPS is constructed along with extra long snare and sight.
Their weakness is the fact that they suck ass in early game, but in teamgames its less noticable, but its still true.
Whole concept of "suffer early, kill later" was flawed from the beggining. If they were at least partly better then volks early then their G43 could have been toned down, but as it stands right now it would be unfair to nerf G43 without giving any early game buffs in return, since there would be 0 point of getting them over volks, exept maybe for snare.
Their powerspike is pretty much the single reason why they are not overlapping with volks to begin with, since you can rely less on elites using them.
That not a real weakness since it applies to several units. Grens, Guards, Paratroopers are mediocre to bad without their upgrades. They are designed to be upgraded which allows opponent to make decisions on how to counter. Yet PF also get added utility which allows mixing with VG early to work around their "weakness" and similar cost allows OKW to completely forget about VG later.
Also according to some forum members, OKW is designed to upgun to Obers as the game progresses. Not having to do that is a massive strength by itself.
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