Penals are in the best spot they have been since ever. Not OP, not UP, a quick AT squad if you need one. Stop with all this BS about penals being UP or useless or not needed. 3x PTSR on them is great.
Im assuming your talking to me? I think PTRS penals are fine, I was giving suggestions based on what OP stated. I think their AI in the LATE GAME is slightly UP, but since you said that can you point to a high level match between elite players where the PENAL player won without either T2 back tech or Commissar.
Ok I take it back, seems that the vet guide is wrong again. Perhaps I should start looking through my favourite units and seeing what else is wrong \o\
They're 290 MP for a 6 man squad with those stats, not sure how much more generous one could expect for that price tag. Riflemen and IS are 280MP but are worse starting off.
No prob, I think conscripts and Penals were the only ones that were significantly adjusted. In the notes they say Penals change was to promote late game scaling/bleed. So its obviously a known issue however any changes may be to much. That why I think a minor buff only at VET3 would help, I think they are close but not quite where they should be. Cooldown/slightly more accuracy something to promote diversity. Also comparing them to Rifleman or IS is not really fair as both have the ability to get several AI upgrades, BARS/LMG/BOLSTER/VICKERS/BREN/SANDBAGS(durability). So although they start worse they end up better, hell Rifleman VET probably equalizes them at VET3 without any upgrades.
The biggest issue I find is everyone keeps focusing on starting performance that has almost no impact on late game where most matches get decided. 7MAN cons/LMG Grens scale amazingly despite that not being the case years ago. They kept getting buffed and now there is literally no point in making PG/Penals/Shocks, I hope COH3 allows for a bit more diversity in builds and strats.
In regards to CE having PTRS, that is nonsense that would give SOVIETS an unbelievable amount of AT in the current META. Most builds are 3-4 conscripts which have nades, CE with PTRS, Guards, 2 ZIS and what ever tank. That is insane especially with how spammable their mines are.
PTRS is meant as an upgrade to keep penals threatening vs LVs and PzIVs (+AT satchel). It has never been a counter all Axis armour weapon and it's a bad Axis player who lets themselves get satcheled barring some fantastic plays.
With penals you get a very powerful 6 man, almost grenadier level dps squad that can outmuscle any inf squad 1v1 except SPs. You trade this for weak scaling lategame, including in the AT department. The PTRS has been buffed to make it much more responsive and require less 'set up' time before each shot, now comparable to other AT inf weapons.
4 man AT squads are generally poor at their jobs (See pzgren schrecks), as would CEs. As it stands there's nothing wrong with the current penal PTRS squad imho.
PTRS has 40 range already, matching Pz IV/Luchs.
Just so you know you keep posting incorrect data despite me telling you otherwise, it’s not the first time you have done that with respect to penal squads. Read the feb patch notes. It was changed and modified at vet2. For their cost they shouldn’t have to scale bad. That line of thinking makes no sense and part of the change was to address that but it didn’t fully fix it.
After playing them for a few months I think their main issue is VET. At Vet2 you have pretty much unlocked all of their performance. An extra 20% acc and cheaper satchel is pathetic for VET3. On top of that their Vet does not really give them any performance enhancement as an AT squad. They don't get extra damage/gun range/satchel range/re-enforce cost with vet. Extra acc means little due to PTRS acc and vehicle target size.
If there is another patch it will most likely be small so I would assume a small change for the unit. My suggestion would be a 10% rec acc buff as part of the upgrade so that they could be more aggressive and dont bleed you dry when they are.
My wish would be the ability to stow the upgrade away similar to minesweeper. That way if a vehicle is no longer around you don't have a useless unit around. It would also allow for some creative flanks and dives.
I think I have pissed off RNG gods lately, had a few games were tanks bounced everything. Lost this match but felt RNG was pretty fair. Tried to be as aggressive as possible but due to know AT back tech KV8 couldn/t be as aggressive as I would have liked.
The 222, for only 30 fuel and the cost of a penal squad does everything the T-70 does but arguably even better relative to it's measly cost.It is almost immune to small arms fire, only being vulnerable to SMG-wielding infantry at point-blank when it's rear armor is exposed.It is often said that it's AI is garbage, but overtime it stacks on damage and forces squads away just like a T-70 does.
It forces SOV build orders almost entirely around countering it near the 5-minute mark.You get a infantry harraser that can easily outrun ultra-lights and destroy them without much effort, and it usually fucks over T1 SOV builds really hard forcing them into a early PTRS upgrade(noob trap)/build a early T2 for ZiS(meaning you're gonna be starving for manpower early game)/use a doctrinal AT gun such as M42(terrible in the long run) or airdropped support weapons from the Soviet Reserve commander which lacks premium tanks/arty strikes.
30F 280+MP is not a investement, and it pays off if it survives as if it costs atleast twice it's actual cost due to it's insane veterancy bonuses especially if you combine them with cancerous spotting scopes.The 222 has passive extra sight range unlike the T-70 which has to use a ability for it.It barely delays a P4 rush, which almost all OST players have been doing for the past 4 years, whilst a T-70 severely delays the T-34 timing.
Also, spotting scopes are truly cancerous and should be removed, I played a match yesterday on Port of Hamburg northern side, with my forces on mid.I placed my vet 3 T-70 behind a ZiS to spot for it behind mid, looking into the fog of war waiting for the OST player to attack me, what actually followed is that I saw a round fly out of the FoW and instakill my T-70 on Recon mode without me ever spotting what actually shot at me(it was a elefant).That Elefant was given more sight range than me by a P4 with spotting scopes even tho a P4 shouldn't be able to see farther than a actual recon unit.I have more than double his playtime, so if you ever wonder how easy it is to play OST there you go.
Everything you said is great in a vacuum but not entirely true. I have beaten back a scout car with not upgraded Penals, it actually take quite a bit of damage with decent positioning or an overly aggressive OST player. A lot of high end players even seem to ignore it and completely put off getting AT package/molotov upgrade even though it is signicantly cheaper than it used to be. The META now is pretty much pushing them off with any one of the regular guards commanders.
I don't think it is bad just seems strange to rush since the power spike is small, I feel getting mg->4 grens is better than mg->3 grens scout car rush.
I ran around with cons and built sandbags. the 222 was no threat. for 2 min i just stalled with the cons with at nades. t70 arrived. the pak missed. the t70 then covered the flanks. then i built elite inf and a katyuscha.
once i saw where the paks and mg were, i fired the katyuscha, forced the pak to reposition or even decrewed it , then i moved in my blob and had map control
One thing I have never understood is the hard-on for rushing a 222, it is legit trash unless rng rolls your way or it hits vet2.
On another note I was thinking of you when I was full on raging yesterday. I am on a 6 game losing streak where 3 of those games were decided by some of the worst RNG I have ever seen. Rear shots on P5 bouncing(game probably registered as side), another game 3 shots on P4 out of position by IS2 and 2 T3485 missing or bouncing, I even had 2 Vetted Penals squads get beaten away by a non-vetted ober out of cover. Shit was insane. Not gonna lie I was like this is probably what Donnie feels like. Shit I even went to sleep angry promising to uninstall the goddamn game. Still pissed but it is the only RTS I play so got to just deal with it.
For anybody I played yesterday GG, sorry for being so salty.
Just watched it, you came in frustrated and yea some of the misses sucked but you were being extremely aggressive with your early gren play. That really messed you up and early losses obviously messed with Scout car timing. You should do some AssG strats since most soviet players seem to conscript spam straight to guards and T70. Hell it seems that AT package is delayed so double AssG in halftrack could cause havoc. Also the early muni saving can be used for both mine types to protect flanks and help funnel LV to your AT.
I chalking up most of your issues to frustration since you don't get that high in rank by luck. I did have one question why did you make 2nd pioneer so early? Since he was spamming so much inf a 2nd MG would have helped out since you were so muni starved to upgrade grens.
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