Profile of ZombiFrancis

Lack of effective infantry outside of a doctrine is what cripples most Soviet strategies.

It's more that Soviet T2 has everything an SU player needs: ZiS, Mortar, and MG. Conscripts are T0 so nothing has to be spent getting them out. T1 is investing in a detour, and only effective on highly urbanized maps and gimmicky team games.

Spamming maxims is as effective (if not more) as any other (current) strategy, and it doesn't hamstring the Soviet player's ability to tech into the midgame.

@ZombiFrancis Nice solution so SU get both (originaly doctrinal call-in) elite infantry Guards (for soft AT + long range) from T1 + Shocks (for hard AI) from doctrine sound fair and balanced. But can you explain to me how this change the situation with Penals, who will use them?

Well, not really. So the changes that I made in that Tuning pack removed elite infantry accuracy while moving and at long range, and kept that soft AT behind the commanders that would've had Guards call-ins, and the DP-28s AND the grenades require teching to unlock. It's a bit different than a flat swap.

So there's still be no PTRS + Shocks. And they don't have that long range potential until they at least get DP-28s, and only if a Guards commander is chosen: PTRS. Also keep in mind this then leaves the Soviets with NO infantry unit that excels at range, except for the sniper. That alone has significant strategic implications to consider.

And like I said, this didn't change the role of Penals much. I increased their accuracy and while it made them competent like conscripts, they were still extremely situational. So I essentially treated them like Assault Grenadiers. On said urban maps where Penal Battalions perform effectively, a commander with Penals could be chosen to capitalize on that fact. Better a commander choice be situational than an entire faction's tech tier.

The problem here is two-fold. First: with the Penal Battalion unit itself, and Second: That unit being in Tier 1, leaving Tier 1 in a rather awkward spot for Soviets. Changing the role of Penals could potentially solve both aspects. A simply buffed Penal Battalion in the same role in T1 will only address half the problem.

Thanks for the input everyone! It's great that everyone supports re-roling of Penals, or even completely changing the unit.

@Zombifrancis just because the system of commanders with guards in the title I would think that has a low chance of being patched in. It sounds amazing though.

So generally we have 4 solutions including the OP:

1: buff to make them viable in current role, buff vet/rifles/satchel

2: change them into a riflemen type unit, a la OP.

3: put Penals into weird nonmeta commanders like nkvd and terror, replace in t1 with some kind of soviet long range unit that performs like cheaper but worse Guards

4: leave Penals in current role, but give some kind of AT

The main thing I was looking at was how Soviets would function with a strong infantry from T1. What I felt like the results were a similar faction to vCoH Americans.

Stripped down Guards actually work out pretty well though. They just needed a few reductions to reflect that they aren't hitting the field at 2 CPs. With slight reductions to their costs and accuracy, they actually fall into place. Without reducing their accuracy they outpace riflemen by far, with 6 men and 16 damage rifles that are just as accurate as Garands. The lack of a snare isn't enough to counter balance this. As such, I reduced their their far accuracy to 4/6th of grenadiers (the other 16 damage rifle), so 0.398, from 0.529.

But the thing is, 0 CP Penal Battalions for doc choice doesn't make the unit worthwhile. Being able to pop one out immediately has some implications that could be good for SOV, and sure the flamethrower and satchel could be utilized, but the unit itself is still in an awkward place.

Especially if a unit like Guards are available at T1. There just becomes no need for Penals. And the exact same situation we're in with Penals exists: why make them if you have Guards or Shocks? Giving them AT nades puts conscripts in a redundant role.

Giving Penals a form of AT would somewhat undermine a doctrine choice for PTRS. The main thing about Guards troops and the doctrine choice is to get that light AT. Even if Penal Battalions were identical clones of guards, but didn't have PTRS, then the Guards commanders be variants of the conscript PTRS. Giving Penals a snare like AT nades would really start to invalidate conscripts.

So in my opinion #2 is the only real option, regardless of anything else. Even in a different context Penals aren't terribly functional. And comparing the SVT to the Carbine and it seems the SVT is better than the Carbine in every way, (especially accuracy, surprisingly), except for aim time and damage, where the Carbine has the (slight) edge. The SVT is almost exactly like the M1 Garand, but with half the long range accuracy and 2/3s the midrange accuracy.

I tested the SVT with it's midrange accuracy tweaked to more closely match rifle's garands. Directly matching rifle's midrange accuracy was too much, so I gave then 5/6s of that: .555, (from .46). I also boosted Penals' moving accuracy modifier from 0.5 to 0.6. So far so good.

But one thing I didn't expect is that by having Penal Battalions as a doctrinal call-in, their situational nature really gets highlighted. Being able to pop out a Penal when I see bunkers being thrown down while also being able to go T2 first is a nice concept.

I'll polish and publish this little experiment in a bit if anyone would like to see for themselves.

Why conscript PPSh package is not a stock upgrade available once all soviet tiers are built is beyond me.

At least Conscripts have utility outside their terrible rifles. Penal SVTs are actually worse than conscripts' mosins in virtually every respect except close range accuracy and aim/cooldown/winddown. Meaning they shoot and miss a whole lot faster than cons. And they deal 8 per shot instead of 16.

The range at which SVTs defines as 'mid' is only 16, meaning they pretty much have to have to be on top of their targets to have a better than 50% chance to hit.

I agree with you about Penals needing a buff, although I think it's less a grenade that penals need, and more a form of suppression, ala Rear Echelons. Exchanging that for the satchels with a DP upgrade would give Soviet t1 a little better shot at surviving without Guards or Shocks. The point of an lmg is to give longer range utility while stationary, rather than rushing an enemy position.

I actually disagree with giving them access to AT nades though. That's a role well filled by Conscripts, and any play with Penal Battalions I think should be supported with them.

Some kind of received accuracy with vet would be nice though, even at the cost of Oorah, which only comes at vet so they can't just zergrushsatchel every mg42 first thing.

Sorry mate I am a bit slow, do you mind expanding on this as I think I know what your saying but not sure.

When certain tools are lacking from a faction it leaves a natural counter to the whole faction, rather than a player's choice to forgo a certain type of unit in favor of others.

That sort of thing.