Locking it behind 2 CP and changing cost to 250 MP/100 Munitions (basically 80% of the cost of ost command and medic bunkers) is reasonable. Aura could also become activated ability that costs munitions too.
Urban commander does not have much munition sinks after incendiary arty got removed
Considering the enemy needs to specifically build counters to a FHQ (flame HT or 2x indirect fire) which takes time and resources I think it would be disproportionally effective at stalling enemy resources as long as it doesn't cost any fuel. It should be a risk-reward investment: slower teching for a chance to gain considerable map dominance.
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As discussed before moving the Command Panther to Elite Armor would cause several balance issues because of mark target / HEAT shells and sight range / Panzer Commander combos. It would require an entire rebalance of the Command Panther's abilities. |
I really just think the ST needs some ease of use changes to make it worth its cost/popcap. Replace the vet 1 ability with something actually useful like a recon flare similar to Soviet mortar/Panzerfuss, long range smoke (something similar to Shermans), or at least passive grenade throwing like Comets. The current 20 munition grenade ability is one of the worst in the game in my opinion, total waste of munitions in a commander that is munition ability heavy.
Then slash the vet requirements in half. It already rarely if ever reached vet 3+ when it could damage tanks, now that's next to impossible with the damage/range nerfs. No point in having 5 levels of vet if you can't reasonably attain them in a competitive match.
I'm inclinded to agree, especially on the veterancy issue. The current values are way too high. Infantry kills barely give it any veterancy.
Also now that it has its damage 'balanced', it would benefit to get back a bit more range and a bit faster aim time. |
Vehicle detection is not need for a faction that already gets a half track w/ infrared. Give them something more interesting like radio intercept maybe?
If it would ultimately get heal as well it would be the perfect T1 replacement as the 223 itself could softcounter HMG spam replacing the ISG, the Signal Relay ability would partially replace the IR HT and its healing would replace the truck medics. This would make the commander very attractive for T2 strats as the HEAT shells also drastically improve the Puma. |
The armor value, weapon performance, timing, and implementation of each ability can all be altered. It's less about the cost/performance/stats and more about the unit as a concept. Pop cap can be made negligible if need be. Cost can be made really low if need be. Signal relay can be made timed or passive; limited range or mapwide. Different abilities or upgrades to the abilities can be tied to vet. It can get shared vet, or not. I just think too many people are assuming that this unit will be things (a pop cap burden, a "hide away" unit, etc.) that it doesn't necessarily have to be if the numbers and implementation are worked out properly.
Sounds good honestly. I would personally really like to see what an early (0-1CP) harassment unit could do for the Axis/OKW and how well the Allies would be able to stand against it. I think the Axis generally get to 'dominate' the build orders much less (like early UC or SC forces an early Raketten) and this could really spice things up. It could also finally give OKW a good option/chance to softcounter HMG or sniper builds (!).
I like the idea of a combat/harassment vehicle (super Kubel) for early game with utilities for mid/late game. I think it would definitely be worth to test several iterations of a 223 vehicle. |
Yeah defs an interesting idea. We have already discussed a cache-like ability as a possibility. We didn't include in my post as we wanted to keep the initial proposal streamlined. Still an option though, so is 0cp, however, this unit would be better in combat that either the UC or scout car as things currently stand.
I can't remember how the 221 performed but I thought a UC/SC with enough HMG/infantry support would be able to softcounter it because of its low armor value. I suggested 0CP to give it a bigger window of opportunity before PTRS etc. are coming out. Although 0CP might give the USF a lot of problems now that I think about it. It would definitely be up for testing.
Oh and Pfussies for Elite Armoured were discussed to death. We spent a great deal of time talking through various proposals for them. Ultimately we decided not to pursue as it was very divisive across the group.
Right, thanks for sharing this. It's a shame but now at least we know to spend our energy to help improve the other suggestions. Would a Panzergrenadiers (250HT) crossover call-in be off the table as well?
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Lots of good feedback guys.
Regarding the Hetzer ideas: Major overlap issues with JP4 aside, it's not something we are able to tackle with current limitations.
However, we really like Smartie's idea for a 223 in this doctrine. Apparently, a model exists. Here are a few designs we are thinking about.
1) Regular 223. This unit costs approx 250/ 20. Combat ability similar to a 221. Signal Relay and healing are upgrades, which can be mutually exclusive. Approximately 50MP + 10/15 fuel extra each
2) Stock signal 223, same combat ability. Signal relay comes as stock. Healing is a purchasable upgrade. Base cost 250/ 25. Healing cost 100 MP - 15 fuel
3) Full 223: Comes with signal and healing as stock. This option would likely cost Mp 325 Fuel 35/40
All options would be cp1.
Base signal range would be approx 100, with increased range with vet.
Thoughts?
Psssst allow it to lock down territory a.k.a. OKW caches (mechanic used by Ostheer's Opel trucks). Perhaps fuel only to stay in the commander's armor theme. This would greatly extend its use into the late game.
But I kinda agree with the others. The 223 would have to come straight up (0CP) so it can act the same as a UC or a Scout Car as an early game harassment unit. Otherwise it might become more of a burden than an improvement.
What are the team's thoughts about the suggested Panzergrenadiers/Panzerfusiliers call-in ability instead? |
Give Elite Armor the Hetzer. Keep Signal relay, but merge emergency repairs with HEAT since they both add abilities to tanks. EZPZ
AT Hetzer? Would be cool. This merge is a nice way to open up another ability slot. If AT Hetzer is a no-go, I'd keep suggesting either a Panzerfusiliers or Panzergrenadiers call-in.
Pgrens have the advantage of offering OKW a unique hand-held AT option to fight TDs while Panzerfusiliers would give a nice opportunity to fix their CP requirement (which Breakthrough would also benefit from) and to see them used more often. |
It wasnt needed and it made commander weaker in late game. Same would happen if Relay is removed from Armored Elite
I think most people just feel like Signal Relay - while it can be useful - is not good enough to take up a full ability slot. I honestly think it becomes fairly worthless in the late game anyway because by then (in team games) front lines have been established and the position of enemy armor can be guessed quite easily. With the other abilities of this commander being very munitions heavy, there's usually no room for a mediocre recon ability anyway.
Most suggestions call for the ability to be included in another ability (like Panzer Commander or Emergency Repairs) so it frees up an ability slot for something like a good call-in rather than having it removed completely.
Even with all the buffs I still think Elite Armor will not be competitive enough as long as Signal Relay isn't replaced by something much more influencial - such as a Panzerfusiliers/Panzergrenadiers call-in or Panzer Tactician smoke. |
That would open up room for another call in and yet give the much needed Panzer Tactician to the OKW while still retaining signal relay for those that want to use it.
I would like Panzer Tactician too, but seeing how "The balance team has deliberated on a couple of options which ultimately we decided not to include" [on the subject of replacing Signal Relay] I'm assuming the team considered PT and concluded it would not be fit for implementation. |