The best part about the original iteration was that not only did you have to leave the Vehicle, but you didn't get upgraded repair speed, upgraded vet, and had to upgrade them and the upgrade both took 30 seconds and reset if they entered the Vehicle again. Was genuinely the most worthless upgrade in the game next to the Advanced Warfare IL2 Strafe.
I wouldn't be against buffing it in some form. The question being how since it's a very fragile subject and there's not much room to buff Vehicle Crews for it to matter or not be broken. Also they still have VC level RA and no combat veterancy so they drop models worse than Partisans.
Replace them with UKF style smoke self repair |
Haha, that is embarrassing, haven't played OKW for a long time, kind of forgot about it (oops).
No problem
Still pintle mg has higher ~40% more dps then m20's, although the range is smaller (35 vs 40). From my perspective it is way easier to get value out of it then from m20, since 221 can do whatever for quite a bit of time without threatening opposition. UC is unreliable vs 221, clown car can be problematic with a squad inside, but manageable and wc51 is not that hot anymore.
This is also not correct. The UC is very threatening to the 221, especially when you can't make use of 221 mobility if the UC is supported. An upgraded UC will completely demolish a 221, and same for any other micro light that is upgraded or supported. The 221 has superior mobility to those vehicles, but its the prey and not the hunter, so it's rather easy to deny the use of the offensive capabilities of the 221 without making dedicated at investments. WC51 is very hot, is actually the most popular USF doctrine, which is why it's getting nerfs in this patch, and the wc also counters the 221 |
The problem of HEAT rounds is that it should have custom stats for each vehicle. Its damage buff is pointless for mediums against mediums but very good on the puma because it grants 160 damage per shot, and on the King Tiger
Panzer Commander is very useful, and I think the offmap is great. It can even destroy an emplacement if brace is on cooldown or abandoned team weapons if I can't keep the tank stationary and forces every team weapon to move or lose. It also grants +10 sight and +10 accuracy |
You don't need Battlegroup for 221, you need supply truck for it
But you need it for the 223, which is the vehicle that should be compared to the m20 |
Why does the 221/223 gain received accuracy with vet, and especially such a weird value?
It needs to run from any AT vehicle anyway and small arms won't miss it.
The 251 has something similar
I don't get the purpose of it. AT guns are hardly going to miss it anyway with it |
pull up the numbers with starting recourses and tech pls.
USF starts with 10 fuel more
Mechanized is 60 fuel, Battlegroup is 45 fuel while any usf tech path is 55 fuel
Also this is very misleading since 221 has faster timing...
Yes, but not 223, which arrives exactly at the same time m20 arrives
221 is outdps'd by tier 0 scout cars despite not being tier 0 and being the most expensive micro light with a 15 fuel cost |
Also such units with similar timing have very short lifespan, so having access to this sort of upgrade is pretty neat. So if you don't like the upgrade - don't spend your resources on it. Also the unit is fine. Great scouting vehicle and provides a decent power spike in already a pretty good doctrine.
The 223 combat value is lower than the M20, while the timing, health and armor are identical. Both have defensive smoke and increased sight, but the m20 has the mine already avaiable, so 5 fuel for the armor and health upgrade match perfectly other similar units while the 223 would still be a little overpriced |
Why would anyone want just a beefier Grenadier for meatshield while they can have Osttruppen which is cheaper and just better overall for being the meatshield.
Also, VSL should just be better -not overwhelmingly but in a way- than the LMG42 upgrade for the grens since that is the whole point of the commander, not anything else.
Ironically enough it's also only in a commander without stuka or tiger. |
I did not get your second part, but from the first one you exactly describe how 5 men Grens are intended and what thedarkarmadillo described: LMG Grens are damage dealers, 5 men Grens offer superior survivability (and more close and moving DPS)
When fighting against other infantry survivability depends on the ability to handicap enemy dps capabilities. We can create any situation and engagement against infantry and we'll see how having a single model with an mg42 allows mg42 grenadoers to be better because that mg retains its dps, so that survivability is just apparent as damage is dealt and entities drop. This is why squads that have a dps distribution that is more even between all squad members are less elite and generally cost less to reinforce. VSL is not a bolster infantry where you simply add a squad member. You trade that better dps upgrade with the extra squad member, but the squad itself will always perform worse in any situation, so there's no use for that survivability. This may be my opinion and probably it's not popular, but the overall value of the squad goes down, and so should the cost to reinforce it. The moment VSL drop 2 models their dps is greatly impacted, while this is far from true for lmg grenadiers, and dps retention causes the enemy to drop models himself, meaning it will be able to deal less damage overtime than it would while fighting with VSL grens |
You pick 5 man grens so your grens have 5 men. You pick lmg for reliable DPS.
Its literally a choice as old as choice in games. Damage vs durability.
upgrades that overshadow others are poorly designed upgrades.
That's not how it works. Durability and dps go hand in hand, the lmg grenadiers losing 2 models means still having most its dps, while the dps of 4 men grenadiers drops drastically with 2 models lost. As the dps drops, the enemy retains much better dps, so your durability is is actually lower. |