You throw out a scout car you can just about spam during the early game to cripple the only way a faction has to heal its infantry thorough the game, do you understand what this means?
If you do play USF in 1v1 you will quickly understand that it does slow you more than you can afford to, just because it's cheap doesn't mean you can get one right away let alone without consequences.
Otherwise here is an idea, why even bother healing your infantry?
If it wasn't a good trade, then nobody would dive its 222/Puma/Halftack/luchs in the base to destroy it, risking to lose the LV while at it.
Because the only reason this could not happen is that your opponent is scared of what you might have in the base.
If he learns you have no Stuart or not building one, no bazooka, no 57mm = Dive in.
And that's only in early game, imagine in late game where you get a panzer 4 or a Tiger.
So if I'm reading this right...
*ahem*
"if the enemy knows you don't have any counters they can exploit the fact that you didn't make, nor are making, any counters" is that what I read? What's next? "if I don't cap the victory points, the enemy does and my vps tick down and I don't think that's fair"? |
Put it someplace you can protect it if the enemy is diving it enough to make a thread about it. I swear some players don't want any counter play at all in this game. They want all the reward and none of the risk. |
Shocks would need a heafy buff though is con ppsh became non doc and I don't think anyone wants that. |
Some would say grens fall off late games and their faust is a meme too. I would add mg42 a big victim of late game fall off.
Vet Cons before 7man still contribute late game, just less people tried it, tried to vet them. But we dont expect them to go from start to end.
Its the same thing as vet 222,bren,aec,t70 even p4 v 60td. Early units window gets smaller as the match goes. Contributions get more utility less game winning
Now with 7man, they become too good for costs and out last early stock infantry.
Imo only usf and ukf we expect their stock infantry to scale early to late games. By their faction designs
The meme was that was ALL cons could do. Grens still have their LMG that allows for long range support fire and the nade that does the same. As for the lmg... Imagine that but not even having the lmg and relying on the exact same rifles they started with and nothing else... That's the problem, or was anyways.
Mainline units are not the same as 222 (who if it survives can still shoot down planes and provide Los) bren, aec (who still has smoke and its snare) T70 (who can recon, cap and munch infantry) mainline infantry are SUPPOSED to work all game. Cons are not supposed to be an early game unit they are supposed to be an all game unit, and now they are. Previously they were not. |
I don't see anything contrary to my views. You can't stall till late games if cons are so bad. Especially against top players.
Tell me about losing vet squads, this is the pain i spoke before about wehr 2v2 pov. Besides easier to get wiped 4man squad. Lmg grens are pretty much rekt against vet allies. So do pgrens. At least sov get strong callin infantry and you just need a cheap lone cons to provide utility in such loss scenario.
Of cos right now sov late game consists of 7man durability behind cover with utility, heavy armor to push and take hits, while cheaper 60td to snipe consistently and/or cheaper 76 to throw and disrupt.
The costs of axis units simply cant catch up.
Sov is good case of power creep, retaining strengths while upping their intended weakness
You are completely missing the point. Cons are viable now because they work at all stages of the game. Before, going cons meant you would be stuck with infantry that couldn't do anything late game. They were a meme and people joked their only purpose was being a snare. Infantry of all things needs to work at all stages of the game and cons failed to work properly late game.
Losing vet definitely hurts all factions, but all factions are able to mitigate that with munitions. Previously cons could not. Previously when you placed a con squad you had exactly the same unit you built at the start of the game. Replacing a gren squad and slapping an lmg42 on it makes it easier to regain that vet due to increased dps and centralized dps meaning even dropping models when not vetted didn't hurt quite as much. It would be like if all tanks but one had the ability to pay to increase reload and health. That one wouldn't cut it facing other tanks that have vet and enhanced stats via the upgrade.
Yes combined arms is strong.... That's intended... Let's bring other factions up to that level!
As for the over achieving strengths, they need to be decreased. We're on the same page there. Crutch units are bad design and every unit should be viable. I've been advocating for that for years... |
I thought this way too.
Imo cons were never mediocre before, just underused under explored. The 7 man buff incentivised player to try cons and discovered they are pretty solid and hold their own when play to their strengths.
Cos t70 was not touched and 7man comes late. So what filled the gap was simply cons are never mediocre.
I made an old whiner topic about new 7cons vet needs tone down, so thankfully post wc19 findings tally with me.
As for is2, similarly i felt Wehr/axis lack pen and the nerf to axis armor values now puts allies armour ahead in hth. Good now we can consider this too with pro results analysis
I disagree entirely. Cons issue was always okw and scaling late game. Previously they were out fought and out numbered the entire game. Cons became dead weight late game regardless though because all units were gaining durability and a small accuracy buff, but all other units were ALSO getting increased firepower via weapon upgrades. That's what made cons fall flat. Their early game vs okw was tuned and their general late game performance was improved via 7 man upgrade. They are viable now because they can function in the late game.
Another huge problem with the old cons was all their performance was stacked entirely in vet, meaning if you lost a squad you then had to start from scratch with a low impact unit fighting weapon upgrades and vet. Other units at least were able to purchase weapons to bridge the gap of lost vet to a degree.
I think you are underestimating how dramatic the 7th man change was for conscripts and how it allows them to actually be competitive in the late game now. They could coast to mid game and then fell off making them unattractive, now that there is a mitigating factor to help them traverse the late game they are actually worth using in the early and mid. |
Why not just revisit giving cons an actual weapon upgrade and dropping the mobilized reserves?
But why? It doesn't fit with the faction nor the design of the unit. The mobilized reserves does both, it just needs further refinement. I'd go as far as saying drop the combat buff entirely--they are getting an extra rifle and a bunch of other boons that really reinforce their job of being numerous bodies.
They are supposed to be quantity not quality. They are supposed to help other units last and shine not capture glory for themselves. They are supposed to be the backbone of their army, not via their teeth but with their blood. I'd much sooner keep the spirit of the unit and have some diversity left in the game than have yet another "kinda utility unit but also an effecient fighter" more diverse roles only do the game good. Not everything as to be centralized dps power creep units. |
It's a combination of resilience and MP cost. Vet 3, 7-man cons have a combined 560hp pool; that's a LOT of HP to deal with, especially with their decent vet and free/easily available green cover. Additionally, when in that self-built green cover, they're doing 10-20% more DPS, depending on range.
Having a powerful unit, if you've managed to keep them that long, is fair. The problem is, in that late-game state, even losing 6 out of the 7 models only means paying 102mp to reinforce the squad back to 100%. That's simply far too cost efficient for the amount of HP your able to put on the field, let alone the DPS.
Then, on top of that, if you manage to somehow lose that vet 3 squad, a new vet 0 squad pays 50muni for the upgrade, does 10-20% more DPS from their self-built green cover, AND gains vet 20% faster, giving you that lost vet 3 squad back incredibly quickly - and it's not costing a ton of MP to keep them reinforced.
You are forgetting that the Soviet have to wait far longer than anyone else to get that upgrade. You get a whack more out of a very similar cost from a t34 than you do a T70 because timing and extra costs are important. You are either getting 7man from t3 and a bunch of side techs or a full tech to t4 when volks and grens are getting (and benifiting from) their upgrades waaaaaay sooner. The Power of 7 man help make up for that lack of time to generate value. I do think it needs a slight toning down but it's good for a reason. What's more is it comes on a unit that was dead before the addition of the upgrade because of the lack of scaling whilst having to deal with the aforementioned axis upgrades which hit the field quite rapidly. |
Unless tanks only come in through the narrow arc of the SU85, the ability becomes a liability and delays the first shot, which you only get by taking it out of camo and losing the bonuses.
Yea. That's uh... That's how ambushes work pal. If you can't figure out where the enemy is going to come from... Don't put the unit into ambush mode! Nuts eh? If you DO you can set it up and benifit from the bonus. And it applies to units other than the su85 as well. You can get a pen/accuracy/ROF bonus for your T70 if you would like. The pen is unimpressive on it but the ROF and accuracy will help it mulch infantry even more. It'll bump a t34 up to p4 levels of pen! Nothing forces you to get these bonuses. It's your CHOICE to do so if you feel it's worth it if you don't that's fine, sometimes mobility is better than offense, it's a choice you need to make. That's part of the game. |
Because it’s a garbage ability that should be removed, not spread to other units. Nobody should have supersnares unless it’s AT nade assault from tank hunter which cancels when you reverse or pop smoke.
Its a perfectly acceptable design but its there to offset the weakness of the PTRS. Paired with a piat it would be far too strong. It's balanced on penals, anything else and it may not be. THAT SAID a weaker, version (not full snare) might be OK. Something like a blind crit or wounded gunner as the gammon is incredibly underpowerd/over priced atm. |