Yes it's almost as if all those tanks have other significant charactarizations while all the Churchill has are its HP pool and armor.
And that does not justify having more rear armor than they do while having less frontal armor.
Penetration is mostly RNG because both have approximately the same chance to pen on average but the KV-1 has way more effective HP.
It's not really a close fight at all, in 20 engagements on all ranges the KV-1 won 17 times, with 13 KV-1s left standing with 25-50% of their health still left.
Now do the same test VS Churchill...I suspect it perform even better.
Your claim that because a tank is label "heavy" it should win over a "medium" is simply flawed. Heavy tanks simpy not "hard" counters to mediums tanks. |
And I was confirming your response, medium generalist tanks lose vs heavy generalist tanks. Whatever they are.
Once more "medium" tank and "heavy" tank has little to with balance. The Okw PzIV is medium and the KV-1 is heavy. Being heavy does not give the KV-1 the edge over PzIV and it is a close fight. |
So a LefH 18 should be able to defeat an M15? Or maybe unit role and charactaristics are relevant to performance/balance along with the unit price?
Taking things out of context does not really help promote this debate. The fact that one unit is medium and the other is heavy tank does change the balance of these 2 units but their role and how they are used, your example is simply completely irrelevant. The label "heavy tank" and "medium" mean very little between these tank. Churchill should have a better chance to win because it more expensive not because it is "heavy". that can be easily seen between the OKW PzIV and the Kv-1 which is a much more balanced much up although PzIv is still "medium" and KV-1 is "heavy"
It is literally one of the purposes of a slow heavy tank to counter a generalist medium tank. You know, as part of that rock-paper-scissors thing that the entire game is kind of about.
It nice theory but it also applies to Tiger, KT, IS-2 which are heavy tanks and Elephant, JT, ISU-152 and all of these unit have (some significantly) lower rear armor than Churchill.
The claim about Rock-paper-scissors does not apply between PzIV and Churchill these unit do not hard counter each other.
On the other hand a PzIV managing to flank a Churchill should at least have penetration chance advantage over it. |
Umm, but you do realize that vet1 was nerfed very hard in the past and its cost was doubled?
It only increases sight range slightly compared to almost doubling it in the past.
For the sake of semantic argument - yes, it does increases sight over 35.
But for the reality of the ability potency - no, its only good for checking if there is infantry around in FoW.
What happened in the past, years ago, is irrelevant, there was a time when Elephant was a stock unit and it hardly the only reckon ability that has been nerfed in the past. It is it's current performance that is currently the issue.
The claim it only "slightly increase sight" is false it provide x140% sight increase giving the unit 49 sight. In addition it can be combined with with focus sight to achieve sight close to 90.
The claim it only good "for checking around for infatry in FOW"it also false since it provide mini map information up to range 70 range for both infatry and vehicles. The cost is actually low.
The ability is far superior to "Infantry Awareness".
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Panthers suffer from JTG, Elefant, old Tiger Ace, old Tiger and KT, since Allied factions need to be able to deal with those units with their stock units, it obviously impacts the encounter with the panther.
Panther suffer from the fact that when their armor was lowered the Penetration of stock allied TD's was not also nerfed.
Allied stock TD are not meant to engage JT and Elephant frontally, if they prove a problem one can easily lower their frontal armor accordingly.
KT is actually a unit that is UP and it would be in far better place if allied stock TD's penetration was not that high. |
Generalist medium tank lose vs generalist heavy tank, sounds balanced to me. Does a Cromwell lose or win vs a kingtiger/tiger even if it flanks it?
a) I was responding to a claim that Churchill can be flanked successfully by PzIV. The claim is false.
b) The fact that one is medium tank and the other heavy is rather irrelevant, performance has to with price and not with label.
c) As I explained in point b) your example is way off since the price difference of the units you bring up is way off.
d) A Cromwell can circle strafe an supported KT to death even with far more significant price difference, a PzIV will have a far more difficult time. Your example is simply does not prove your point. On the contrary. |
They are not immune to flanking. Their rear armour is 160 and 180. With 125 near pen a p4 should be able to pen is reasonably well imo. A panther deffinetly wil. A wel supported kv or churchill however is hard to flank. But so are tigers kt`s panthers etc.
Not really.
An Ostheer PzIV parked behind a Churchill has 69.4% chance to penetrate it while the Churchill firing at the front armor of the same PzIV has 75%.
Even if a PzIV flank's a Churchill it will still loose. |
A su 85 has no turret, no ai or aa, is less mobile, can selfspot but with drawbacks to speed and sight is confined in a cone.
Su-85 can selfspot with vet 1 ability without any penalties. It can actually combine the 2 abilities and have one of longest sight bonuses.
As far as i know turning counts as moving and cuts the su85,s accuracy in half. If i am wrong please inform me of this. I am not sure about this.
turning count as moving as far as I know but SU-85's gun can fire at 30 degrees angle so it will probably stationary when firing.
While i do agree that is a pretty big pen vet bonus. But it needs a pen bonus non the less, damage or rof bonus dont make sense imo at least.
Su-85 has one of the best vet bonuses for its gun and very good base stats. The combination makes the unit having high accuracy, penetration and ROF while being relatively cheap and relatively low Pop.
The unit is simply OP. |
Russian KV-series are fine(totaly not biased because of nationality )
Churchills are, on the other hand, OP. While KV have higher armor, Churchill have 600 hp more(800 vs 1400 if believe to coh2db) and better gun in terms of AOE and pen, thus more prone to kiting your forces and not just throwing itself into any holes of your defences. And let's not forget the glorious vet1 "self-defence" bren's all over the hull. And let's not forget Firefly-Churchill combo, that inflames my butt every time I see that sweet couple toughter.
Both heavvy flamers are absolute cancer and not fun to play against them. However, if kv-8 is rare sight, Crocodile is in meta.
KV-1 has damage reduction so its EHP is 960. |
Yes the kt isent an ost tank. But you cant ignore it when talking about non doc td,s considering the kt is also non doc.
50% of the front value being the rear armour had nothing to do with my remarks. Scoring a rear armour shot from the front is rng as hell. And just how do allied td,s ignore armour value with vet? Do they get a value that lets them always pen anything? No they dont, they get increased with vet, so do most armour values of ost tanks.
As what i assume to be true is that the panthers front armour is 260 and not 175. The pen from an su85 is around 200 far and 240 near. The panther can still bounce su 85 rounds so its armour cant be as low as 175.
But as @farlon points out is that the kt and is2 have the same frontal armour. Coh2db also states this, i overlooked that one.
I still believe that because allies no longer have td,s that bounce about 50% of their shots from panthers and even more against heavier targets.
Usf and soviet late game got better equiped to deal with panthers,kt and all sort of heavy armour totaly wrecked them. Beat ost within x minutes loose is no more thank god.
Su-85
penetration values
Vet 0
Penetration near 240
Penetration mid 230
Penetration far 220
vet 2
Penetration near 312
Penetration mid 299
Penetration far 286
A vet 2 Su-86 has 100% chance to penetrate a Panther at all ranges. |