okw have jp4 for that purpose, hetzer is just useless addition cuz you just cant make it cuz of faction design
non upgraded cav rifles are quite bad
mp40 volks can be fielded faster, can build sandbags, are cheap, upgrade is cheap, great utility no other cqc units have as much utility as mp40 volks, you can upgrade them like already in 4th minute mark
idk why they should be seperate unit at any point
read post 14
Did you find any reason why IS become a separate unit? |
You are correct, my bad.
They received 42 sight range and +25% cap speed.
No problem we all miss things from time to time.
They also have concussive trap, but its too situational imo and should be replaced with booby trap.
Think the c. trap is meant to used to reduce the damage they take but I would have no problem to be replaced by booby-traps (although I would rather have BT do DOT damage). But I suspect it would be a nerf since BT need to placed in owned territory.
The 42 sight range is the same as pios and I actually discussed pio sight range in the other thread. Suffice to say I think it should be farther, 45 would be a good place to start.
I am not claiming that Partisan are great but they come with lots of utility and dirty cheap price, the unit performs very good for its price. |
Since infiltration is a one time thing and I am talking about their effectiveness in the long run, I am choosing to discount the infiltration aspect-especially since they lack the ambush bonus at vet 0.
Regarding chasing down retreating squads, they just don't have the squad size and (thus) damage output to be very good in that role. Thompson paras, shocks, stormtroopers and FSJ are fine for doing it as they have either the raw dps, an ability, or both to shred retreating squads.
The chasing can be done by spawning on retreat paths or setting up mines/ambush there
I like the idea of them being a backline infiltration unit so another route could be to give them utility. Faster cap rate, increased sight range, interrogation, booby trap instead of mines or whatever other "partisan like" things you could give them.
In their current iteration though, their reinforcement cost makes them prohibitive to use.
They already have increased sight and 2 types of mines. I do not remember if they have a cap bonus.
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I disagree. Soviets are more then likely going to need both tier 1 and tier 2 at some point in a match. OKW will likely grab Tier 1 at some point for medics so if you go PF into mechanized, then sure its comparable. But if you go PF into battlegroup, then its not. I don't know what the top level consensus is on the proper tech route with PFs are, but from the matches I've played and seen, battlegroup is far more common with PF than mechanized. So yeah, I'd say its fair to add tier 1 as an additional cost to peniles since the soviet player will be forced to get tier 2 at some point while the OKW will not have to get mechanized.
Back teching is irrelevant, you claimed:
"Playing soviets with peniles against OKW with PFs, you will be behind at least one squad for quite some time because of this."
that is simply untrue, G43 PF will not outnumber Penal in the start of the game because they have to set up truck and come up with the munition to upgrade.
And that why PF are better designed than Penal that should also have their weapon come as an upgrade. |
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In addition, Assgrens have 5 men to start with and far better received accuracy through vet beginning at vet 1.
Partisans by contrast have very squishy individual models and lack the squad count to make up for it. ..
Comparison would make sense if they where used the same way.
Partisans start with mines, cloak, grenade, infiltration and meant to ambush or chase retreating squads not sprint and attack as AsG.
One could try to increase the power level of the unit by increasing the both cost and performance but I doubt that would make them more attractive than Shock troops, ABGuards PPsh Penal or AsGuards.
One could try to redesign them or one can let the be as they are a cheap infiltration unit that can be used to scout afterwards that provide an early advantage but become less powerful as the game progress. Then one can focus on making other changes to doctrines so that the commander become more attractive. |
Cav riflemen are 1CP and 70 munnies to upgrade
assgrens dont have nades smokes and snares, same with assault sections
at least from the start
they are also more expensive
10 manpower to buy is cheaper than 45 munition to upgrade...
VG do not have snare and grenades from the start either... |
G43 Fusiliers have better long range dps before vet.
While peniles are cheaper if you are only talking squad costs, it is true that they requires a tier 1 investment-while cons will permit you to get T2 for MGs or AT guns later on. Playing soviets with peniles against OKW with PFs, you will be behind at least one squad for quite some time because of this.
If you cant sieze map control through local fire superiority, then you will be behind overall as well.
Once more if you take into account the cost of the T1 building you also have to take into account the cost of building and setting up an okw truck since you can not have g43 PF without it.
You also have to take into account how bad PF are without the G43 and how much time will pass before one has lets say 3 g43 PF. |
.. pfusies scale better and they are 270+25 (and 80ammo) while penals are t1+300+27
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That simply wrong. If you want to add the T1 one to the cost of Penal you have to add the cost for building the OKW truck and setting it up. |
mp40s are good as they are now, its fairly quick upgrade that gives you nades and smokes with very good cqc dps
costs only 45munnies
Not really since assault Grenadier, Assault engineers, Assault infatry section are all available from CP 0 at no MU cost. Making them an separate unit would be allot more useful.
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From my game experience, MP40 volks wasn't really good due to a units not design around CQC, but improving MP40 would have lead to a spammable units with faust. And improving Volks for MP40 would have affected standard volks.
That's why I thought that the need of a seperate unit,like UKF,comes from the same place.
I agree and have suggested the same thing in the past.
On the other hand from a design point of view MP-40 as stock upgrade for VG would be much better than the atrocity MP-44 are. One would have to choose how many VG would be left with K98 or upgraded and it would create more room for OKW doctrinal units. |