It became more reliable.
For example I played vs OKW 2v2, owned dude whole game, but ST stalled it a lot. If you can't listen to its engine noise every second of the game, it becomes very problematic, especially vs HMG. It just kills it faster then you are able to retreat it.
Elpern with Kpen are now spamming the doctrine and Elpern came to a conclusion that it is definitely overperforming with current timing, price and performance. Jibber also wasn't happy with new ST, when he played vs it.
Ahh so AVRE for the last 3, 4, or X years, I hear you. Lost count of the number of 'owned' Brits that managed to turn a game round due to AVRE-wipes only. Weapons teams are the ideal target for the AVRE/ST so end up being a significant bleed for sure. Thanks for the reply, will definitely try it out more. I blew up an M20 with it as a meme thing but sounds like it's got actual potential now. Thing actually has the survivability to work in a B-4/SPG saturated environment.
Well fixed Sturmtiger is actively destroying people's keyboards. So at least OKW have that going for them.
It is, eh? Interesting, could have really done with that knowledge last game vs the Soviet conscript and weapons team tide. Very good to know. What exactly about the slower projectile makes it so lethal? People really walk into the new shell? I tried it out but came under the impression that it was still very easily dodged (even if it doesn't collide with a twig anymore). Maybe I'm missing something....
Thanks for all the contributions people, might try an early placement and see if that's reliable for delaying the enemy. Bofors does overshadow it admittedly quite a bit.
I was think of making the target size .8 at Vet3 when they would be going up against tanks/elite AI troops. I believe the different Guards have better than .8 target size but at work so not much time to check. I agree with you on your last point, having a lot of units to similar is boring.
What do you think about at Vet3 having a small decrease in reinforce cost to say 23mp?
I honestly think penals are fine and don't need any further changes, let alone reinforce costs. 23 mp is cheaper than even volksgrenadier reinforce costs and makes no sense. Perhaps others feel differently about penal changes.
It seem the problem has more to do with abundances of healing options and the healing speed than with WP.
That's not what I meant. You can still be forced to retreat if they do a coordinated push. But Airburst (LEFH or UKF) you can just walk through with nary a bit of fear. You absolutely cannot do that with regular shells or at least not be surprised when a squad disappears. WP you can also walk out of and the obscure effect is more troubling. The healing availability just makes it easier to get your troops up to full hp.
I feel like any suggestion to buff arty currently would be met with screams of OP lol. But yes, this has been a problem with the mattress for years now. Why use WP rockets when the HE ones just kill your opponent. Now the same can be said for the LeFH
I couldn't have put it any better myself. Been on the receiving end of WP many times but with Axis fwd healing/reinforce it's not much of an issue.
Thank you, that is exactly what I was looking for.
I was thinking more along the lines of the start of the fight and just remove it from the ability. Even with the ability and maximum lost squad which is 3 I believe the Target size would be .77/.775 depending on how it is calculated. Starting off with a Target size of .8 would allow maximum damage for a bit longer to help against stronger units. Once down to the 3rd man it would be worse but you would most likely be retreating at that point anyways. Any thought on that?
I was not aware there was a stated cap on the amount of models lost other than *Squad death*. So up to +5 multiplier.
Your suggestion would make them too powerful and frankly would roll Axis players regardless of skill. That or the price would have to be increased to compensate, which is almost as bad. 0.8 is elite infantry model size, even infantry sections need to be in cover to get that or 0.85 outside of that iirc. You counted Panzergrenadiers as elite inf and they get 0.8 model size for a 4 man squad. Vet 1 is easy to get on a T0/T1 as well. Penal accuracy and other values would have to rebalanced as they would then be doing far too much damage compared with their current survivability scaling. 3 man squad can still be very dangerous, esp against another squad fairly worn down.
Overall I think the unit is fine. More changes to survivability would homogenise the unit to some generic allied mainline and overshadow conscripts as much as they used to.
I get what your saying and thanks for posting the graphs. To counter, PG are considered Elite right not mainline and Grenadier have a Vet3 target size of .91 and a squad size of 4 so they can't trade as long as the others so it would make sense. Also why do PF get an extra man with the upgrade wouldn't that contribute to their great scaling vs VG.
For the Cons, I would expect them to get walked over due to cost of Obers and PG and the fact that they aren't supposed to be used as damage dealers. I feel like Penal scaling would easily be addressed with a buff to Rec Acc like 5% or a reduction in reinforce.
You're welcome.
PG's timing leaves them in a sort of halfway zone between T0s like cons and T4s like Obers, but the distribution doesn't change much even removing them from the list. Cons do damage fine, especially from behind cover and that -30% weapon cooldown in cover from Mobilize Reserve.
You mean like this?
6 man fusilier does contribute to their great scaling. Their start is utterly rubbish however, these things balance out. As I've said earlier, volks late game is non-existentawful and fusiliers look even better thanks to this.
Suppression's gotta go at bare minimum, makes even dodging it futile esp on smaller maps. If you try to stick around, the next one can land on your head. It's a lot like the problem the low angle panzerwerfer had with suppression. Others already have made good suggestions so I won't repeat what they've said. I'll also avoid saying more due to the cancerous triple premade+ B-4 spammer games I've had since the patch fouling my mood.
To answer your questions clearly the issues are this:
Cons have an ABSOLUTELY abysmal base (1.09 model is just awful when the main base is 1) and only beat grens/volks by simple virtue of outnumbering them and getting up close. For years they were a meme unit because their late game was just so weak despite successive buffs. 7 man went a very long way and they're fine now. Their base damage is pretty low, esp at far and the vet buffs go a long way towards making them a reasonable unit. This graph is of the base damage values and it's clear that in a distance cover shootout they'll get crushed hard. Volks have 31-70% more damage if 1:1 squad comparison. Obviously 6 men but you'll lose a guy fast with base model size. Vet II+ obers and pzgrens will still walk over even vet III 7 men cons.
Penals start off extremely well but they scale not as well. (Used to be even worse, imagine running around with 1 model size inf vs pzgrens and obers!!!) That price for their fantastic base has to come somewhere and scaling is one of them, as is the cost of the unit. Considering they start as 6 men and have this firepower below? Strong scaling would make them ridiculously OP.
Of key importance is the fact that volks and fusilier do not have the same Kar 98. That's up to 25.7% more damage at close range. Yes the upgrade is more powerful for fusiliers than volks but it also costs more and the 6th man is not free. It is true that fusiliers scale very hard but that says more about how weak volks are late game than anything else.
It's also not true that 40% accuracy is unusual for mainlines
Grenadier: +40%
Osttruppen: +40%
Conscript: Already stated as 40%
Riflemen: 30%
Fusilier: 40%
Panzergrenadier: +16.7% then +20%, making +40% overall
Volksgrenadier: +30%
Infantry Sections have weaker scaling (25% accuracy etc.) in great part imho because of how powerful their base is.
Penal: Last man stat bundle, +30% and then +20%