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How are Infantrysections since patch?

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17 Oct 2019, 20:40 PM
#281
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

After playing some UKF in the last days there is one thing I really don't understand.

Everybody agreed that UKF being overly static was cancerous to play against. Now they made Infantry Sections completely incapable of attacking anything because they die too easily out of cover. So the problem of being static (something that nobody) liked has become even worse. So what is the point of it?


My understanding of the problem is this: you can't make emplacements too powerful cause they will become cancerous. On the other hand, when you retreat you leave them behind bcause you can't retreat them and that is how you bleed too much as uyour opponent will just destroy them and it is gg. Solution: make the new ability maybe refund more mp for dismantling them; if the maths and how quickly it happens is done right, it might be a nice way of building non overpotent emplacements but quick dismantling of them rather than loosing them might be a faction saver and allow for some cool UKF dynamics.
17 Oct 2019, 20:59 PM
#282
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

I don't like the idea of emplacements at all. UKF needs non-doctrinal indirect fire or smoke OUTSIDE the mortar pit. Maybe make pyro Sections more effective or give them something else so they can counter static play and MGs.

Before the Infantry Section nerf it was meta to blob up Sections to wipe MGs, infantry etc. After the nerf you have to blob even harder because Infantry Sections are absolutely terrible at pushing enemies now. What is the point of it? On top of that there was also a weird buff to vet 3 accuracy which makes no sense to me because Infantry Sections struggle in early and not in late game.

The best way to go about it would have been to slightly tone down Infantry Sections DPS from 30-35. They were never OP in close to mid-range anyway. That wouldn't have hurt their ability to push positions but still made them less cancerous as before. They also wouldn't be able to death loop MGs anymore because of the change and a moving them would be worse in general.

I just don't understand why they were pushed into being even more static than before when everyone agreed overly static faction design is bad?
19 Oct 2019, 06:25 AM
#283
avatar of srider

Posts: 34

I don't like the idea of emplacements at all. UKF needs non-doctrinal indirect fire or smoke OUTSIDE the mortar pit. Maybe make pyro Sections more effective or give them something else so they can counter static play and MGs.

Before the Infantry Section nerf it was meta to blob up Sections to wipe MGs, infantry etc. After the nerf you have to blob even harder because Infantry Sections are absolutely terrible at pushing enemies now. What is the point of it? On top of that there was also a weird buff to vet 3 accuracy which makes no sense to me because Infantry Sections struggle in early and not in late game.

The best way to go about it would have been to slightly tone down Infantry Sections DPS from 30-35. They were never OP in close to mid-range anyway. That wouldn't have hurt their ability to push positions but still made them less cancerous as before. They also wouldn't be able to death loop MGs anymore because of the change and a moving them would be worse in general.

I just don't understand why they were pushed into being even more static than before when everyone agreed overly static faction design is bad?


It seems that the idea of the latest round of changes is to encourage static play in the early to mid game. Initial manpower cost for Sections is reduced in order to speed up time to field for the first 3 or 4 units. This provides a window to build a sand bag fortified line during the first tech tier where you can then choose to transition into AEC/Sniper/etc. in order to break out the initial static position and into mid game. The early window to build a fortified position is vital as without bolster/weapon rack it is very difficult to push back if you lose early map control.

Regarding the Vet 3 buff, this is to help sections fight off late game elite infantry units such as highly vetted ober/pgren as without the additional accuracy, they simply get run over even in green cover due to the high received accuracy bonuses on some of these elite units.

I think both of these changes make sense in the perspective that they force a certain playstyle for the faction, but question still remains about whether or not they reduce strategic variety, and if they actually weakens the faction as a whole by deepening the weaknesses of the faction that many others have already highlighted.
23 Oct 2019, 20:28 PM
#284
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

so i was doing some testing because of this thread and the results really highlight how weak tommies actually are

in my tests sturms could attack 4 man tommies behind green cover across no cover and come out on top 9/10 times
of those tests
1 sturm model remained 1 time
2 sturms remained 5 times
3 sturms remianed 2 times
4 sturms remained 1 time
3 tommies remained 1 time

in the win for the tommies 2 sturms dropped before the sand bags

against volks tommies won 10/10 times
1 tommy left 1 time
2 tommies left 3 times
3 tommies left 5 times
4 tommies left 1 time

once okw had a building however results flipped

flame nade used:
volks won 8 times
it was a draw 2 times
obviously due to the nature of the tests the flame nade test isnt conclusive to real test situations (not moving from the flames but i think its important for painting the picture anyways) also worht pointing out the squad stops moving to trhow the nade which exposes themselves longer while the tommies are still befitting from cover. i threw all nades at max range allowed but real game shows that rushing to cover then flame nading is also extremely effective

2 volks remained 3 times
1 volks remained 5 times
both squads dies at about the same time 2 times

stgs admittedly didnt make as big of a difference as i expected but still did impact the results and make the matchup "anyone's game"

tommies 3 men remain 3 times
tommies 2 men remain 2 times
rommies 1 man remain 2 times
volks 1 man remain 2 times
volks 2 men remain 1 time



now i only used okw because i feel their dynamic against brits is the hardest, due to a starting shock unit and volks ability to deny cover

take from this data what you will and remember that RNG is RNG and i only did 10 tests a piece, however i do feel it represents the results seen in game

granted, i feel like sturms being able to close SO reliably against tommies who are already dug in without so much as a flank is pretty damning in the matchup
24 Oct 2019, 16:43 PM
#285
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 556

...


I think you should have made the flame nade test with bolstered tommies since they arrive almost at the same time. But good test anyways tho. Thanks!
29 Dec 2019, 16:09 PM
#286
avatar of Ritter

Posts: 255

Permanently Banned
I actually think they may be fine, but brits are too expensive. I never have mp.
29 Dec 2019, 21:08 PM
#287
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789

I find that in the early game I am super starved of MP, but once I have my core infantry (4 IS, 1RE, 1MG) my manpower just keeps building up because they bleed so little due to on the field healing and only 28mp reinforce on a 298 (with bolster) worth of MP squad

We could, I don’t know, reduce their initial cost and increase their reinforcement cost?
30 Dec 2019, 05:49 AM
#288
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

Where the hell does this "Tommies are squishy" bull shit come from?


Was anyone saying they are squishy? Im too lazy to read through all 15 pages again, but I thought the complaints were about their weapons not target size
2 Jan 2020, 14:36 PM
#289
avatar of jackill2611

Posts: 246

Remove tommys' minimal grenade range - at least they would be able to defend themselves better when in cover.
2 Jan 2020, 15:02 PM
#290
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

Remove tommys' minimal grenade range - at least they would be able to defend themselves better when in cover.

Only if you remove the friendly fire damage reduction grenades have.

After that, you can play russian roulette with grenades all you want.
2 Jan 2020, 16:27 PM
#291
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3


Only if you remove the friendly fire damage reduction grenades have.

After that, you can play russian roulette with grenades all you want.
2 Jan 2020, 19:37 PM
#292
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

Dmg change or RA change, roll back 1 of those two.
I think the RA back to 0.8 is the better choice since most of the issues people have with pre patch Tommy is model burst from 16dmg rifle, now it is gone.
2 Jan 2020, 23:16 PM
#293
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

I think they need a buff but not dps. I think they should have less RA, or even straight up damage reduction to increase durability against aoe as well.
Nothing too big, because the true achilles heel of ukf is teching.
3 Jan 2020, 00:54 AM
#294
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

I'd like to see a mad minute ability stock that improves their ROF (and thus dps) at the cost of munitions. Bit more bite at a cost.
3 Jan 2020, 03:43 AM
#295
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 784

I'd like to see a mad minute ability stock that improves their ROF (and thus dps) at the cost of munitions. Bit more bite at a cost.


This tbh. Can never go wrong with adding more neat abilities to this game.
3 Jan 2020, 19:17 PM
#296
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

I'd like to see a mad minute ability stock that improves their ROF (and thus dps) at the cost of munitions. Bit more bite at a cost.

"Mad lads time" Ability.
Breaks a cup of tea in front of the squad and says loudly "LONG LIVE THE QUEEN" (Brithish version of oohraaa!
Gives 100% RoF but decreases acc to 0 (Basically no one can hit anything)
J/K ^_^
4 Jan 2020, 21:41 PM
#297
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 959

I think the "DPS Curve" over game-time needs to be adjusted down, specifically mid-game.

In the early game, I'll agree that IS' are a bit on the weak side, and rely too much on cover bonuses. However, once they hit mid game, their early vet bonuses COMBINED with double-brens AND bolster results in a far too resilient and mobile DPS-blob. If the IS' had to stay still for a while to setup, and took ages to rotate (i.e. LMG-grens), that would be one thing; but their setup AND turn rates are incredibly fast, meaning that you can 'stutter-step' them extremely efficiently. In addition, once you have 3 or 4 of them in a blob (seemingly very common, especially as games get bigger), they can easily take MGs head-on due to this.

Once players reach late-game, this DPS-blob is somewhat manageable for axis players, thanks to "anti-blob" weapons and their own vetted and upgraded infantry, so I don't think that needs to be adjusted.

This could be achieved by delaying either bolster or brens (but not both); however, I'm not sure on how the exact implementation of this would work. Non-bolstered IS+Brens are fine, and Bolstered IS are also fine; it's the combination of all three.
4 Jan 2020, 21:50 PM
#298
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

I think the "DPS Curve" over game-time needs to be adjusted down, specifically mid-game.

In the early game, I'll agree that IS' are a bit on the weak side, and rely too much on cover bonuses. However, once they hit mid game, their early vet bonuses COMBINED with double-brens AND bolster results in a far too resilient and mobile DPS-blob. If the IS' had to stay still for a while to setup, and took ages to rotate (i.e. LMG-grens), that would be one thing; but their setup AND turn rates are incredibly fast, meaning that you can 'stutter-step' them extremely efficiently. In addition, once you have 3 or 4 of them in a blob (seemingly very common, especially as games get bigger), they can easily take MGs head-on due to this.

Once players reach late-game, this DPS-blob is somewhat manageable for axis players, thanks to "anti-blob" weapons and their own vetted and upgraded infantry, so I don't think that needs to be adjusted.

This could be achieved by delaying either bolster or brens (but not both); however, I'm not sure on how the exact implementation of this would work. Non-bolstered IS+Brens are fine, and Bolstered IS are also fine; it's the combination of all three.


You forgot about the part where tommies have pretty low acc bonus and 2 brens are only slightly better then 1 LMG42.

And 4 of any long range unit can and WILL take down HMG frontally unless its in heavy cover.

Also, tommies are extremely susceptible to vehicles, so use vehicles. Flame 251 specifically roflstomps them.
5 Jan 2020, 16:12 PM
#299
avatar of jackill2611

Posts: 246


Only if you remove the friendly fire damage reduction grenades have.

After that, you can play russian roulette with grenades all you want.

I can live with that
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