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Pak Howitzer needs adjustment

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27 Jul 2019, 22:25 PM
#1
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2048

It seems a bit too strong right now. Perhaps a tone down is needed?
27 Jul 2019, 22:41 PM
#2
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 359

I noticed that it can actually kill Axis infantry units and potentially even wipe them if you are not paying attention. Plus it can harm Axis vehicles as well. With that being the case it's definitely OP.
27 Jul 2019, 23:18 PM
#3
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2048

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jul 2019, 22:41 PMCODGUY
I noticed that it can actually kill Axis infantry units and potentially even wipe them if you are not paying attention. Plus it can harm Axis vehicles as well. With that being the case it's definitely OP.


Yes yes smartass, it can. The point is not that it can, the point is that it can do it too efficiently now. Has good range, outranges mortars, which it can kill in 2 hits too. Snipes infantry like there is nothing and on most 2v2 maps, which are narrow, it just dominates. You have to do nothing with it, it just does all the work for you.
27 Jul 2019, 23:21 PM
#4
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 248

No. It's already fragile as fuck and one of the very few USF methods of forcing the Axis factions to get off their asses instead of hiding behind schwere and team weapons.

If the pack gets nerfed, so should the lefh, stuka and nebelwerfer. Hell, sturmpanzer too.
27 Jul 2019, 23:24 PM
#5
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 445

Oh, this again

If it's coming up this often, it should probably be looked into.

This keeps coming up, doesn't it?

Again



And again...:D


It's always the same issue, and it's still the same since the last IDF unit rework/nerf patch. The core problem is that there are units which perform exceedingly well without user input. This doesn't fit in the design of the game; units which don't require input generally aren't that powerful (MG bunker, etc.) whereas units that require a lot of user input are generally quite powerful (sniper). This can of course be skewed by unit cost; a very expensive one can be powerful with less micro (elefant), but it's generally a correct power curve. These powerful, inexpensive AND low micro units are massively off the curve.

Remember the Ost Vet 3 Turbo-Laser mortar? Everyone complained about it massively overperforming; and they were right, because it required zero player input to get results. It was rightfully nerfed, and now fits the 'power curve' well.

Now we're just looking at the current outliers, which happen to the the M1 Pack and the M8A1 Scott. They're both incredibly effective units because they require next to no user input to get results; this needs to be changed.
27 Jul 2019, 23:29 PM
#6
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2048

No. It's already fragile as fuck and one of the very few USF methods of forcing the Axis factions to get off their asses instead of hiding behind schwere and team weapons.

If the pack gets nerfed, so should the lefh, stuka and nebelwerfer. Hell, sturmpanzer too.


Well, good to know that you rank the pak howi amongst these units, proofs the point. Thanks mate!
27 Jul 2019, 23:30 PM
#7
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2048

Oh, this again

If it's coming up this often, it should probably be looked into.



Yeah good point.
27 Jul 2019, 23:32 PM
#8
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 248

God forbid that 700 fucking manpower worth of t3 indirect fire actually be able to kill infantry and team weapons that sit in place.

It's not enough that the squad wear bullet magnet vests and decrew on losing two models, but the auto attack has to be rendered completely useless or removed so it can act like a really expensive barrage-only mortar that can't even retreat.

Im sure you'd talk about buffing the barrage somehow to sound fair, but I'm also sure none of the people calling for this thing to be nerfed would want its damage or aoe to even approach the squad-wiping lefh, so this whole balance discussion just goes in fucking circles.
27 Jul 2019, 23:33 PM
#9
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 248



Well, good to know that you rank the pak howi amongst these units, proofs the point. Thanks mate!


The Maxim and the MG42 are both machine guns too, and the grw34 and 120mm are both mortars.
27 Jul 2019, 23:35 PM
#10
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 445

God forbid that 700 fucking manpower worth of t3 indirect fire actually be able to kill infantry and team weapons that sit in place.

It's not enough that the squad wear bullet magnet vests and decrew on losing two models, but the auto attack has to be rendered completely useless or removed so it can act like a really expensive barrage-only mortar that can't even retreat.

Im sure you'd talk about buffing the barrage somehow to sound fair, but I'm also sure none of the people calling for this thing to be nerfed would want its damage or aoe to even approach the squad-wiping lefh, so this whole balance discussion just goes in fucking circles.


Read my self-quoted post above; the problem is that the Pak Howitzer is incredibly powerful without user input (i.e. auto-fire). And it's not just against support weapons; the vast majority of OST infantry units need to stand still to be effective (LMG-grens, etc.). All a USF player needs to do is put a pak-howi in auto-fire range, ignore it, and focus on riflemen. The Axis player won't be able to do anything, since standing still isn't a choice (hit by PAK), moving isn't a choice (can't fire LMGs on the move), and relying on support weapons also isn't a choice (MG42 needs to stay still...).

You can basically disrupt the entire design of OST's army with effectively ZERO user input.
27 Jul 2019, 23:36 PM
#11
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 95

Oh, this again

If it's coming up this often, it should probably be looked into.



That’s literally the same person spamming the same thread. I said as much last time and got my post hidden lol
27 Jul 2019, 23:38 PM
#12
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 95



Read my self-quoted post above; the problem is that the Pak Howitzer is incredibly powerful without user input (i.e. auto-fire). And it's not just against support weapons; the vast majority of OST infantry units need to stand still to be effective (LMG-grens, etc.). All a USF player needs to do is put a pak-howi in auto-fire range, ignore it, and focus on riflemen. The Axis player won't be able to do anything, since standing still isn't a choice (hit by PAK), moving isn't a choice (can't fire LMGs on the move), and relying on support weapons also isn't a choice (MG42 needs to stay still...).

You can basically disrupt the entire design of OST's army with effectively ZERO user input.


Literally just a move your p4 next to it and it’s dead. It’s good but top players don’t whine about it because it’s stupid easy to kill.
27 Jul 2019, 23:39 PM
#13
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 445

Literally just a move your p4 next to it and it’s dead. It’s good but top players don’t whine about it because it’s stupid easy to kill.


That works in a vacuum, not a real game with M36s, ATGs, etc. Also that thread is full of 1v1 and 2v2 >300 players saying it should be adjusted.
27 Jul 2019, 23:45 PM
#14
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 248



Read my self-quoted post above; the problem is that the Pak Howitzer is incredibly powerful without user input (i.e. auto-fire). And it's not just against support weapons; remember that the vast majority of OST infantry units need to stand still to be effective (grens, G43-upgraded units, etc.). All a USF player needs to do is put a pak-howi in auto-fire range, ignore it, and focus on his riflemen. The Axis player won't be able to do anything, since standing still (to do damage) isn't a choice, and moving reduces your effective damage by an incredible amount.

And that's all with ZERO user input from the USF player.


All infantry except for G43 equipped Ostheer infantry need to be still to fire, Ostheer is in fact the only faction that breaks this rule. This also assumes the side facing the pack howitzer has absolutely no indirect fire or vehicles of his own whatsoever, and no team weapons that the pack howitzer should be firing at instead.

How would you even nerf this thing without making it totally superflous? Ive already outlined why I think you guys are full of shit, and the fact nobody can come up with some role for it other than what it does after so many threads on this topic is more indicative of a refusal to adapt strategy.

As for no input, most of the shit in this game takes no input. I dont get this line of criticism whatsoever. Its not like the pack howitzer is going to automatically spawn three rifle squads, a MG and an AT gun to defend itself. Its not like you have to tell an Ostwind, schwere or sniper to barrage infantry.
27 Jul 2019, 23:49 PM
#15
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 829

Givme rocket arty in cpt. tier and we gut
28 Jul 2019, 00:01 AM
#16
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 367

Givme rocket arty in cpt. tier and we gut


Oh, and a sniper in tier 1. I think snipers piss off static players just as much though :{
28 Jul 2019, 00:12 AM
#17
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 445

All infantry except for G43 equipped Ostheer infantry need to be still to fire, Ostheer is in fact the only faction that breaks this rule.


Look at the stats, Volks, Grens and Cons are all tied for worst moving penalties; rifles and penals are significantly better. Then look at upgrades:

BAR Rifles - Can Fire on the move
Bren IS - Effectively zero 'ready aim' time, so they can stutter-step
Cons w/ PPSH - SMG, fires on the move
STG Volks - STG can fire on the mov
Vs.
Grens w/ LMG42 - Can't fire while moving, awful 'ready aim' time


G43s (which I removed from my post, before yours), do give some decent 'on the move' power to Grens, but they're doctrinal.

This also assumes the side facing the pack howitzer has absolutely no indirect fire or vehicles of his own whatsoever, and no team weapons that the pack howitzer should be firing at instead.


Pak howitzer out-ranges mortars (2x the range on barrage), so they aren't a problem.
Vehicles shouldn't be a problem, since we're at mid game; they're not rushing USF backlines that often, especially if your PAK is defended (mines, M36s, etc.)
No one's going to build team weapons since two PAKs will insta-wipe (or retreat) them, so MG42s aren't an issue either.

How would you even nerf this thing without making it totally superflous? Ive already outlined why I think you guys are full of shit, and the fact nobody can come up with some role for it other than what it does after so many threads on this topic is more indicative of a refusal to adapt strategy.


Same way the OST Vet 3 Turbo mortar was nerfed - lower the auto-fire strength (i.e. ROF, accuracy). That's the entire issue. It's roll is being a long range IDF weapon; that's it. It's like a mortar, except with more range, WP barrage, and HEAT barrage.

As for no input, most of the shit in this game takes no input. I dont get this line of criticism whatsoever. Its not like the pack howitzer is going to automatically spawn three rifle squads and an AT gun to defend itself. Its not like you have to tell an Ostwind to barrage infantry.


The entire game is design around high amounts of micro. The ostwind you (sometimes) need to tell to manually target squads, you need to move it manually, etc. The PAK howitzer you put into a position... and then do nothing with. And then it erases OST units.

Also defending a unit is not the same as micro'ing the unit.



Givme rocket arty in cpt. tier and we gut

This was suggested in the other thread, and moving the Calliope into cpt. might actually work well. It might need some adjustment though, and the M8A1 would likely also need adjustments, but it's a valid suggestion.



Oh, and a sniper in tier 1. I think snipers piss off static players just as much though :{


Then we'd need to give one to OKW as well. I'd be fine with this, too.

28 Jul 2019, 00:17 AM
#18
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 367

Sure thingy, but where is my non-doct pershing, flak base, and elite infantry :D
28 Jul 2019, 00:24 AM
#19
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 359

Sure thingy, but where is my non-doct pershing, flak base, and elite infantry :D


Can't do that. It wouldn't fit in with the faction design of USF which is to get it's ass kicked by superior OKW and occasionally Ostheer firepower.
28 Jul 2019, 00:26 AM
#20
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 445

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jul 2019, 00:24 AMCODGUY
Can't do that. It wouldn't fit in with the faction design of USF which is to get it's ass kicked by superior OKW and occasionally Ostheer firepower.


Stats seem to show that USF is the strongest faction.


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