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russian armor

Soviet B4 "Change"

25 Jul 2019, 07:14 AM
#21
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820



No offense to Skippy but low rank arranged team stomps are not exactly the best thing to serve as a base for balancing.


thats why the B4 was even abused in 2v2 in HIGH RANK GAMES from Von Ivan team comps...right?

Only after a long time there came same Counterplays with an EXACT commander pick and teamplay. not this regular: i have some choises vs this unit. YOU must play an exact play to counter this easy peasy BS unit. else u was fu** hard.

25 Jul 2019, 07:17 AM
#22
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13805 | Subs: 7



thats why the B4 was even abused in 2v2 in HIGH RANK GAMES from Von Ivan team comps...right?

Only after a long time there came same Counterplays with an EXACT commander pick and teamplay. not this regular: i have some choises vs this unit. YOU must play an exact play to counter this easy peasy BS unit. else u was fu** hard.


A specific unit requires specific counterplay?

In CoH2?

IMPOSSIBRU! All can and should be countered by gren/volk blob!
25 Jul 2019, 07:20 AM
#23
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jul 2019, 07:17 AMKatitof

A specific unit requires specific counterplay?

In CoH2?

IMPOSSIBRU! All can and should be countered by gren/volk blob!


you dont understand. (like mostly you try to troll-answer)
The best players struggled hard vs this BS abuse.
There is no other unit out which cant be countert by so less options.

even the best KT/JT combos which take about 500fuel are really easy counterable with a ALOT of commanders and strategies.

Edit:

its not only the the B4 itsself it makes this commander so strong. It has the close combat shock troops specialst, recon and for mother russia...spam some sqauds and noone come through the penal/ shock wall. and if you try to establish a front..B4 says hello
25 Jul 2019, 07:24 AM
#24
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13805 | Subs: 7

You know what is one problem with top players?

If they face non meta strat from equally good players, they'll struggle.
Element of surprise left by non meta strat leaves them helpless.

That's the reason why top players try to invent new, working, non meta strats prior to tournaments.

Your example of ONE SINGULAR GAME is completely irrelevant.
25 Jul 2019, 07:27 AM
#25
avatar of Puppetmaster
Patrion 310

Posts: 871



thats why the B4 was even abused in 2v2 in HIGH RANK GAMES from Von Ivan team comps...right?

Only after a long time there came same Counterplays with an EXACT commander pick and teamplay. not this regular: i have some choises vs this unit. YOU must play an exact play to counter this easy peasy BS unit. else u was fu** hard.



Von Ivan played a 2v2 AT game on crossing the other day. He built 7 B4s across the game (6 destroyed) and it took him 60 minutes to destroy 1!!! vehicle. Perhaps if we are using Von Ivan games as a measurement, it needs buffing?

Also, I'm not sure that picking Jaeger Armour is exactly a difficult choice either. Infact any commander with an offmap + recon between the two of you is pretty easy, especially when there are commanders with both in. The fact you can Flare + dive bomb it without any way of countering it pretty easily negates the power of the B4.
25 Jul 2019, 07:29 AM
#26
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1983 | Subs: 3

thats why the B4 was even abused in 2v2 in HIGH RANK GAMES from Von Ivan team comps...right?


And they lost in the 2v2 Anniversary Tournament to enemies who actually put some effort into hardcountering their B4s with recon and Stuka Dive Bombs.
25 Jul 2019, 08:09 AM
#27
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jul 2019, 07:24 AMKatitof
You know what is one problem with top players?

If they face non meta strat from equally good players, they'll struggle.
Element of surprise left by non meta strat leaves them helpless.

That's the reason why top players try to invent new, working, non meta strats prior to tournaments.

Your example of ONE SINGULAR GAME is completely irrelevant.


Seems like you only seen one single game from them. They played ALOT games in the training vs best teams and even in the torunements the used this tacitcs with succes...until the enemy find a counter ....and ven with thats commander and tactics it was very hard
25 Jul 2019, 08:09 AM
#28
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820



And they lost in the 2v2 Anniversary Tournament to enemies who actually put some effort into hardcountering their B4s with recon and Stuka Dive Bombs.


it is easy to safe 80 fuel than to save 200muni. And even than in some cases the B4 wasnt destroyed...only decrewed
25 Jul 2019, 09:20 AM
#29
avatar of Maret

Posts: 581



you dont understand. (like mostly you try to troll-answer)
The best players struggled hard vs this BS abuse.
There is no other unit out which cant be countert by so less options.


I maybe wrong, but to counter enemy howitzers you always need recon and some offmap abilities? What difference between b4 and lefh? To counter both units you need recon and offmap ability. This problem not for B4 only, but for all howitzers in game. If your enemy have howi and your team don't have something from these list:

1. Your own howi
2. Recon + offmap ability

Congratulations! You are in deep, dark, hole.
25 Jul 2019, 09:52 AM
#30
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jul 2019, 09:20 AMMaret

I maybe wrong, but to counter enemy howitzers you always need recon and some offmap abilities? What difference between b4 and lefh? To counter both units you need recon and offmap ability. This problem not for B4 only, but for all howitzers in game. If your enemy have howi and your team don't have something from these list:

1. Your own howi
2. Recon + offmap ability

Congratulations! You are in deep, dark, hole.


1. You are basicly right
2. Problem: its easier for allys to have/ get recon and offmaps abiltys.
3. LEFH is maybe powerful...but doesnt instawipe without warning all you could have...normally it shot several shells which give you big warning...before the could hit something. Yes..indeed..they have lucky shots. But not this kind of: your KT was deleted in a blink of eye..even it have 70% life.
4. lefh commanders hasnt such strong ability like shock troops and for mother russia ..and..no penals with satchels to push back tanks.
25 Jul 2019, 10:01 AM
#31
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 938

The VonIvan argument is dumb. If Von is such a good player and puts so much pressure on his opponent, it’s him and not the B4 that’s causing this. The B4 itself has an tonne of counters.

OKW: Stuka zu fuβ, Sturmtiger, goliath, 105mm arty (scavenge doctrine), rocket arty and flame leig (feurstorm), lefh (overwatch/fortifications), Jagdtiger

Ostheer: LeFH, mortar HT, stuka dive bomb, fragmentation bomb, light artillery barrage, railway artillery, panzerwerfer, brummbar siege arty ability vet 1, Stormtroopers, zeroing artillery
25 Jul 2019, 10:12 AM
#32
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 546 | Subs: 1

This whole thread is a farce.

A bad player sees one good player using a meme unit

Unable to properly process the amount of effort the good players put into their wins, they latch onto the B4 and falsely equate their success to the the unit they don't like

Go to forums, ignore everyone telling them otherwise, continue to insist it's too good
25 Jul 2019, 10:18 AM
#33
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13805 | Subs: 7

This whole thread is a farce.

A bad player sees one good player using a meme unit

Unable to properly process the amount of effort the good players put into their wins, they latch onto the B4 and falsely equate their success to the the unit they don't like

Go to forums, ignore everyone telling them otherwise, continue to insist it's too good

Thread? You've summed up 97% of balance section.
25 Jul 2019, 12:14 PM
#34
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820

This whole thread is a farce.

A bad player sees one good player using a meme unit

Unable to properly process the amount of effort the good players put into their wins, they latch onto the B4 and falsely equate their success to the the unit they don't like

Go to forums, ignore everyone telling them otherwise, continue to insist it's too good


Even the dumbest monkey could play with B4. Thats the thing.

When u look Skippy using the B4 you can see the following: 10-15 commands per minute.

not more needed. and this low micro causes so much trouble on the enemy side....its awefull.

Seems like you never used the b4 often...thats why you think its not BS. But when you use it..its totally a Stuka dive bomb which cost only a 1-time invest and after that its a ready every 1minute.

Its even better than the stuka dive bomb...its dont need view on any area to shot at, hasnt A LOUD A BIG WARNING and can be spamed..so if you have 3-5 B4...you totally fuck up the enemy
25 Jul 2019, 12:21 PM
#35
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13805 | Subs: 7



Even the dumbest monkey could play with B4. Thats the thing.


Lets put it to the test.
Go get to top 50 in whatever game mode you want using B4 every game.
Its so easy and op, you'll be there in just a couple of games.
25 Jul 2019, 12:35 PM
#36
avatar of Maret

Posts: 581



Even the dumbest monkey could play with B4. Thats the thing.

When u look Skippy using the B4 you can see the following: 10-15 commands per minute.

not more needed. and this low micro causes so much trouble on the enemy side....its awefull.

Seems like you never used the b4 often...thats why you think its not BS. But when you use it..its totally a Stuka dive bomb which cost only a 1-time invest and after that its a ready every 1minute.

Its even better than the stuka dive bomb...its dont need view on any area to shot at, hasnt A LOUD A BIG WARNING and can be spamed..so if you have 3-5 B4...you totally fuck up the enemy


Looks like someone couldn't see difference between team game where:
Team 1 - Skippy with friends and teamspeak
Team 2 - Randoms with chat

Each player will say to you that team 1 have more advantages that team 2. Problem not in b4, but in case when you go to team games without teammates. You only should hope that your ally will be decent player and not Ololo. But even if you random ally will be decent player, against old team you will be have less chances to win.
If team 2 have teamspeak, then no any problems to counter b4, lefh, ml-20, pak-43, british sim city, heavy TD's and e.t.c.
25 Jul 2019, 12:39 PM
#37
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 546 | Subs: 1

A) What Katitof said

B) Don't you go assuming how much I dick around in 4v4 AT games. I love my shitty meme units.

When I need to carry my weight against a decent team, I play guard commanders.

When it's random teams and we can walk it, I dick around with 120mm spam and B4s

I use the B4 a lot and I know exactly how good it is not and how a proper team will delete it every time while using their armour advantage to punish me. That's why I don't use it in games versus a decent team.
25 Jul 2019, 15:25 PM
#38
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1690


If you would have looked into his videos actually you would have noticed he builds the B4 pretty far forward. There is a reason for this: If you build it near your base it won't hit anything the whole game. You have to use it in a range about 80 to 120 to actually hit something at all at a good chance.

"to win the lottery, one has to buy some tickets first"
B4s are high reward units, when they land a hit. It depends now wether you want to take risks and increase your chances or use b4 safer but with rndom results

I do think B4 is a meme unit, a under reliable one (not underperforming) and very team dependet, hence why its only seen in 4v4s.

I would like to see B4s on 1v1 to 4v4s and ML20 to 4v4 more exclusively. In onder to achieve that B4 should receive some sort of buff. But to remove its RNG is a bad solution IMO. I once suggested to pair B4s with sniper or conscripts new ability, target smoke. That will force any ready to shoot B4 to shoot at the smoke coordinates, with at least half the scatter, to be used reliably against static positions at least.
25 Jul 2019, 17:39 PM
#39
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2731

I think you need to separate annoying and overpowered.

You can find a unit frustrating and irritating to play against, but that doesn't make it powerful. It makes it unpleasant.



Take Radio Silence. It's an OKW ability that turns off the minimap and tac map for the opponent.

It's only purpose is to frustrate and annoy your opponent. It's a stress generator with zero worth beyond that. In my view the very idea of it is antithetical to good game design. It's up there with reversing key bindings on the list of abominable, worthless concepts that have no place in any game EVER.

But it's also one of the weakest abilities in the game. Most players consider it a waste of slot.



Despising the B4 and the B4 being balanced aren't mutually exclusive.
25 Jul 2019, 18:15 PM
#40
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1983 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jul 2019, 17:39 PMLago
Take Radio Silence. It's an OKW ability that turns off the minimap and tac map for the opponent.

It's only purpose is to frustrate and annoy your opponent. It's a stress generator with zero worth beyond that. In my view the very idea of it is antithetical to good game design.


Funny you should say that. I think Radio Silence (at least the idea behind it) is actually a hidden gem as one of the very few abilities that expands the strategy of the game beyond brute force, and I think it's a shame there aren't many more units or abilities like it in CoH2. I would've loved more "spy" units and abilities (like vCoH's PE Vampire HT or the Commandos radio triangulation) that would have let players fight enemies in more ways than bullets and shells.
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