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Propagandacast small arms fake news.

11 Jul 2019, 11:27 AM
#21
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1068

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2019, 11:17 AMKasarov


On topic:



I think this is the wrong context to use it in.


Exactly, I dont know what Danes words were, but if hes saying Bren was too accurate for section level suppresion tool, hes probably right. Its not nessecarily a wrong comment, maybe just not in context.
11 Jul 2019, 11:27 AM
#22
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 546 | Subs: 1




Wow. Could you be any more stereotypical American?


This is the same guy who had a fit at me for once using the term 'Murrica' when referring to the USA, so, yeah. Never mind all the mention of Krauts and Britbongs all over, Murrica is where one draws the line, apparently.

Blinkered would be an understatement.
11 Jul 2019, 11:31 AM
#23
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 490 | Subs: 1



Heh, cleaning the weapons, Marine? Keep up the good work, Semper Fi brother.


Not quite, I’m the Squadron Duty Officer (SDO) tonight and I have to unlock the armory so other Marines can do stuff. Lol
11 Jul 2019, 11:39 AM
#24
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 490 | Subs: 1



Exactly, I dont know what Danes words were, but if hes saying Bren was too accurate for section level suppresion tool, hes probably right. Its not nessecarily a wrong comment, maybe just not in context.


There is no such thing as a gun that is “too accurate”.

Suppressive fire isn’t something achieved through volume alone, that volume must also be on target. A BREN makes up for its lower capacity magazines by having higher accuracy and a lower rate of fire, allowing you to conserve ammo while still putting rounds down range.

BRENs aren’t too accurate, they are more accurate than a lot of other LMGs, but that is never a bad thing.

And like I said before, if you really want to open up your pattern a bit for some reason, you just loosen your grip and that makes your gun wiggle around more.
11 Jul 2019, 12:05 PM
#25
avatar of Ara Ara Fufufu

Posts: 9

Permanently Banned


What I'm shooting at here is that anything good that came out of the Soviet Union was basically copied, that's all. If you do a little bit of research on everything again, good that the Soviets "made" you'll reach the same conclusion.

Examples: PPSh 41 was actually copied from the Finnish Suomi KP/-31, their IS-1s and IS-2s didn't even come before they captured and examined Tigers, their arguably "famous" Lada car is actually heavily inspired and copied from Fiat, Italians. I could probably go on but it would take me a full day/night cycle to list them all.

Also, guess where the pic is from.


I just want to pitch in saying that PPD ( PPSH later) and KP were both influenced on the German Mp-18 hence why they look the same but had nothing to do with each other than that and Soviet's taking the drum magazine.
KP-31 beats the PPSH out of the water easily and is a much better piece of engineering perfection from its time. After all, it was also the Finns that showed Soviets how to use a SMG and that it is the future.
11 Jul 2019, 12:26 PM
#26
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1068



There is no such thing as a gun that is “too accurate”.

Suppressive fire isn’t something achieved through volume alone, that volume must also be on target.


Of course you can, HMGs are mostly designed to be 'inaccurate', in that they saturate a decent sized area with rounds, rather than a small patch. This is how you suppress a large area, quickly and easily.

Much of the time this is being done at very large ranges, you mostly cant even see the enemy, there is no 'target' to direct accurate fire towards. Your target will be something like a corner of some woods, or an area of a hill, or even some dead ground you cannot see.

A HMG which randomly places rounds all over that area and quickly, is going to keep the heads down of any enemy much more than a weapon placing rounds in a more predictable pattern.. thats why it can be true, and relevant, to say a weapon is too accurate.
11 Jul 2019, 12:43 PM
#27
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1499 | Subs: 3

Let's just say that Dane has been leaning a little bit too much towards the Axis side and that's also the reason why I stopped watching him when I noticed it.

So him being a bit clueless about ALLIED small arms comes as no real surprise to me.

Also it's fairly obvious what the Soviets copied to make their AK47 even if they're not the same weapon system -



*cough* (superior German engineering) *cough*.




And now let us remember that the valiant Aryans copied from the Untermenche:
12-cm Granatwerfer 42 - direct copy of the Soviet PM-38.
8 cm Raketen-Vielfachwerfer - a copy of the Soviet 80-mm missiles and BM-8-24
G43 - based on SVT-40
RSO - based on the layout scheme of the Soviet transport tractors STZ-5 and Stalinets-2
11 Jul 2019, 14:31 PM
#28
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 490 | Subs: 1



Of course you can, HMGs are mostly designed to be 'inaccurate', in that they saturate a decent sized area with rounds, rather than a small patch. This is how you suppress a large area, quickly and easily.

Much of the time this is being done at very large ranges, you mostly cant even see the enemy, there is no 'target' to direct accurate fire towards. Your target will be something like a corner of some woods, or an area of a hill, or even some dead ground you cannot see.

A HMG which randomly places rounds all over that area and quickly, is going to keep the heads down of any enemy much more than a weapon placing rounds in a more predictable pattern.. thats why it can be true, and relevant, to say a weapon is too accurate.


What you are saying all sounds good, except that it isn’t factual. That is not how machine gunnery works in theory or in practice.

What you are describing is the relationship between the beaten zone, which is the area that a machine gun’s rounds will impact in at a given range, and searching and traversing fire. Searching fire is when you move the gun up and down to move the beaten zone farther away or closer and traversing fire is where you move the gun side to side to move the beaten zone side to side. The part you’re missing is that there is also a thing called grazing fire, which is two things. It is the range that a round will likely hit a standing man on flat ground if the shot is fired straight at him. For most machine guns this is about 1000 yards/meters. It is also the minimum range at which you can attempt to establish a beaten zone, because closer than that your rounds aren’t falling enough to make a pattern that needs to be adjusted like that.

You also fail to mention the tripod usage for this, which must be sandbagged in place in order to gain maximum accuracy in the gun, because it’s done at such long ranges that the gun needs to be as stable as possible. Using the tripod you have a T and E system, for traversing and elevating the gun. It’s a system of little wheels for making very precise changes to where the gun is aimed, also known as the “lay” of the gun.

All WWII and newer machine guns shoot about a 2-3 minute of angle group, which is about 2-3 inches at 100 yards or 20-30 inches at 1000 yards, including the BREN gun and the MG42. Both are quite accurate guns mechanically.

You take advantage of the accuracy of the gun off of the tripod to move the relatively small beaten zone around a much larger target area by firing a burst, then adjusting the T&E then firing another burst then repeating. By remembering your adjustments you can crest a very large pattern that is controlled yet also unpredictable to the enemy. This allows you to give long range supporting fires over the top or next to friendly units. An inaccurate gun could not do this safely.

Accurate machine guns are better machine guns and the BREN is no exception to this.

I have professional training with the use of machine guns. This isn’t my opinion on how to use them it’s just how they are used.

Please don’t consider this to be a personal attack, it’s not. I’m just trying to share my personal, firsthand knowledge in a place where I think there is a lot of misunderstanding of infantry weapons and firearms in general. We are all friends here. :)
11 Jul 2019, 14:52 PM
#29
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 602

Ian has put out some great vids about this stuff over the years, and I remember his websites line regarding why the STG and AK look alike.

"Because form follows function", which is a beautiful statement that is worth considering in all contexts.

Funny since the side-by-side picture posted is literally from that blogpost: https://www.forgottenweapons.com/ak-and-stg-kissing-cousins/

It was not doubt influenced by some of the German gunsmiths that were recruited in that era, though I don't think the appearance is as relevant to saying it was a "copy" as people make it out, especially given the different firing mechanism. At some point there are just optimal designs for certain things.

The AVS also looks like a "stretched out" version of the assault rifle profile we see between the two. There's clearly a historical precursor in many different countries to what is that specific shape.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1TsIRFpML0

Forgottenweapons.com is a great website and his youtube channel is absolutely awesome too. He also has a video on the Rifle-grenade setup for M1 Garands he did with InRange/Carl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=161JT0WRVf4

And also just cuz I'm linking all this, might as well include the one about PIATs cuz they're awesome/goofy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk_vS-VdYas




11 Jul 2019, 15:29 PM
#30
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

People still believing hollywood propaganda with the untermensch bullshit lol lmao.
11 Jul 2019, 15:33 PM
#31
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 490 | Subs: 1

People still believing hollywood propaganda with the untermensch bullshit lol lmao.


Quite the contrary! Lots of Soviet equipment was excellent and fit it’s purpose extremely well.

The PPS-43 is probably the best SMG of WWII and the PKM is probably the best general purpose machine gun of all time!
11 Jul 2019, 15:39 PM
#32
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1086

Nobody cares, OP. U go to his casts for entertainment purposes and strategy ideas
11 Jul 2019, 15:48 PM
#33
avatar of FichtenMoped
Editor in Chief Badge
Patrion 310

Posts: 4607 | Subs: 3

Nobody cares, OP. U go to his casts for entertainment purposes and strategy ideas


Have you actually seen how many people are replying to this thread? You argument is invalid so be a little more careful with your Keyboard there thanks ;)
11 Jul 2019, 15:53 PM
#34
avatar of Princeps

Posts: 84





And now let us remember that the valiant Aryans copied from the Untermenche:
12-cm Granatwerfer 42 - direct copy of the Soviet PM-38.
8 cm Raketen-Vielfachwerfer - a copy of the Soviet 80-mm missiles and BM-8-24
G43 - based on SVT-40
RSO - based on the layout scheme of the Soviet transport tractors STZ-5 and Stalinets-2


this vid is rly funny.
:lolol::lolol::lolol:

So lets begin....

The soviets capture a "stg44 precursor" and they think .. well we need our own weapon system.

With the same boundary conditions as the stg 44... midlle cartige etc.

And the wonderboy Kalashnikov, who had no to less experience as a weapon desinger, designed the best small arms in history of mankind.... SURE. His pre work, this tank crew weapon is ugly child of a Thompson and a PPSch-41.

After the first trial he "redesigned" and "copy" the reciver and the savty mechanism from Browning and others. So his weapons is a mix or the "best of" of all weapons but ...sure nothing from the germans....
because of ? what ?
He must be stupid to didnt look at a captured stg 44 and it makes no sense that he doesnt test it. Even he is at an testing ground to "learn" from others.

And too Gruner and the stamping part.
They have stamping problems with weapons and "oh" the germans who argubly have the most knowledge of their time about stamping are not allowed to help them ... because of what ? ?? they went back to germany and build weapons.

Hey "but there is a document" wich.... sure and why would they lie about the most famous thing out of russia besides vodka:lolol::lolol::lolol:


I dont want to pop ur little blubble but maybe the "biggist russian weapon Nerd/Fanboy in history" is not an impartial source.


#Prokhorovka


And the whole Tiger is the answer to t34 BS.... pls dont get even start with that.





11 Jul 2019, 16:07 PM
#35
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1983 | Subs: 3

I have professional training with the use of machine guns. This isn’t my opinion on how to use them it’s just how they are used.


I assume what you learned is how the USMC uses them. That is doctrinal and does not necessarily reflect the way other countries favor to use their MGs. It's very likely that there are big differences, as for example how US doctrine focusses on medium rate of fire (550-650 RPM) MGs while the German army prefers to use their 900-1300 RPM MG3. Or for example how Dutch soldiers are trained to operate very differently compared to US or UK soldiers.
11 Jul 2019, 17:31 PM
#36
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066



Quite the contrary! Lots of Soviet equipment was excellent and fit it’s purpose extremely well.

The PPS-43 is probably the best SMG of WWII and the PKM is probably the best general purpose machine gun of all time!


I know.
11 Jul 2019, 17:38 PM
#37
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 201

Dane's a Coh2 treasure. Prove me wrong.

Also, did I seriously see someone claim the AK-47 is not a copy of the StG44? Really?

11 Jul 2019, 18:05 PM
#38
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1499 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2019, 17:38 PMFarlion
Dane's a Coh2 treasure. Prove me wrong.

Also, did I seriously see someone claim the AK-47 is not a copy of the StG44? Really?



A copy of the concept, mechanically there is nothing in common with it. M1 Garand / carbine made more influence on AK. AK-46 had a direct copy of the Garand bolt.
11 Jul 2019, 18:06 PM
#39
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1499 | Subs: 3



Quite the contrary! Lots of Soviet equipment was excellent and fit it’s purpose extremely well.

The PPS-43 is probably the best SMG of WWII and the PKM is probably the best general purpose machine gun of all time!

Which is not in the game.:foreveralone:
11 Jul 2019, 23:00 PM
#40
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 490 | Subs: 1

People still believing hollywood propaganda with the untermensch bullshit lol lmao.


Quite the contrary! Lots of Soviet equipment was excellent and fit it’s purpose extremely well.

The PPS-43 is probably the best SMG of WWII and the PKM is probably the best general purpose machine gun of all time!
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