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russian armor

Soviet Infantry Design

29 May 2019, 12:55 PM
#41
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2182 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post29 May 2019, 12:47 PMblancat



6 man 2 lmg squad already strong

even they have "hit the dirt" skill

It would be good to change their base weapon to SVT if u think they are weak



No, not strong. As you here do not claim that the Guard OP, they are not in the game, they are not used. People use Penals and Shock Troops. In the current state, they are at least somehow viable, if left with the current "worst in the game" of the DP-27 and PTRS without any kind of strong ability - this is death for the Guard.
29 May 2019, 13:02 PM
#42
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



No, not strong. As you here do not claim that the Guard OP, they are not in the game, they are not used. People use Penals and Shock Troops. In the current state, they are at least somehow viable, if left with the current "worst in the game" of the DP-27 and PTRS without any kind of strong ability - this is death for the Guard.

Guards AI is currently close to that of Obers the fact that they might or might not be used does not mean that they "somehow viable".
29 May 2019, 13:05 PM
#43
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post29 May 2019, 12:47 PMblancat



6 man 2 lmg squad already strong

even they have "hit the dirt" skill

It would be good to change their base weapon to SVT if u think they are weak

i dont think so they need stun skill

they already have button vehicle

you gonna ignore the fact that these 2 LMGs are as strong as SINGLE axis lmg?
you don't seem to know what guard HTD does, why have you mentioned it at all?
SVTs would nerf them
29 May 2019, 13:08 PM
#44
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2182 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post29 May 2019, 13:02 PMVipper

Guards AI is currently close to that of Obers the fact that they might or might not be used does not mean that they "somehow viable".


If they are such OPs as you say, then why don't people use them? People love the OP, with the slightest hint of the fact that the OP Guard, they would be in every match. The Guard Commander has all the abilities: ML-20, T-34-85, mark. But no one uses the Guard, an amazing paradox.
29 May 2019, 13:14 PM
#45
avatar of blancat

Posts: 810

jump backJump back to quoted post29 May 2019, 13:05 PMKatitof

you gonna ignore the fact that these 2 LMGs are as strong as SINGLE axis lmg?
you don't seem to know what guard HTD does, why have you mentioned it at all?
SVTs would nerf them


u ignored they are 6 man infantry and have "hit the dirt" skill

29 May 2019, 13:18 PM
#46
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post29 May 2019, 13:14 PMblancat
u ignored they are 6 man infantry and have "hit the dirt" skill


Katitof's point, if I've understood it, is that Hit The Dirt is an ability that synergises with long range weapons. It buffs your durability but prevents you from moving. Good for winning a long range cover fight, bad for dodging a bundle nade dropped on your head.

SVTs are mid to short range weapons which do not synergise with optimal positioning for Hit The Dirt.
29 May 2019, 13:24 PM
#47
avatar of blancat

Posts: 810

jump backJump back to quoted post29 May 2019, 13:18 PMLago


Katitof's point, if I've understood it, is that Hit The Dirt is an ability that synergises with long range weapons. It buffs your durability but prevents you from moving. Good for winning a long range cover fight, bad for dodging a bundle nade dropped on your head.

SVTs are mid to short range weapons which do not synergise with optimal positioning for Hit The Dirt.



ok i understood

changing svt is not good idea

but i still think using 2 weapon is too OP

29 May 2019, 13:27 PM
#48
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

Guards were buffed because they were severely under performing in the past and everyone picked shocks over this unit almost every game. Now we have a reason to call in Guards but still people opt to build Penals instead since they have excellent AI and satchel charges. Guards are over priced TBH and very munition heavy. I would rather spend that muni on Penals.

And for some reason, Guards still drop their DPs at a high rate (I think this was corrected years ago but still prevalent).
29 May 2019, 13:32 PM
#49
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post29 May 2019, 13:14 PMblancat


u ignored they are 6 man infantry and have "hit the dirt" skill


And you ignored middle line in the post you've quoted...

Let me enlighten you:

Guards HTD does NOT grant any defensive bonuses, its purely range increase.
29 May 2019, 14:03 PM
#50
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 May 2019, 13:18 PMLago


Katitof's point, if I've understood it, is that Hit The Dirt is an ability that synergises with long range weapons. It buffs your durability but prevents you from moving. Good for winning a long range cover fight, bad for dodging a bundle nade dropped on your head.

SVTs are mid to short range weapons which do not synergise with optimal positioning for Hit The Dirt.

Just to clairfy.
That is inaccurate.
Guard's and Conscript's hit the dirt are completely different abilities one increase damage output the other durability:


Gua 0.75 weapon cooldown, +2.5 range, and squad can't move
Con -10% received damage, -20% accuracy, squad can't be supressed, and can't move

SVT do not follow "carbine profile" and are not mid to short range weapon. They are superior to Guard's mosin at all ranges.

Oddly what Guard's mosin is good at, is DPS on the move.

29 May 2019, 15:48 PM
#51
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Who's idea was it to make two identical abilities do two completely different things?

For all DPB's improvements, it made some weird design decisions and a lot of flat out terrible UX ones.
29 May 2019, 16:03 PM
#52
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 May 2019, 15:48 PMLago
Who's idea was it to make two identical abilities do two completely different things?

For all DPB's improvements, it made some weird design decisions and a lot of flat out terrible UX ones.

I agree.

I brought it up during preview.

My suggestion for a more "elegant" solution was:
Rename it to "take aim" and to be also given to AT I.S.

BOY/PTRS accuracy reduced to Penal levels and the accuracy increased during ability only. Ability would be timed instead of toggle.

Easier for users to understand AT rifle mechanics, more tools to balance the units even more immersion/realism.
29 May 2019, 16:05 PM
#53
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Or just cut all these unnecessary chaff abilities that don't really add anything.

All they serve to do is increase the learning curve without adding any real depth.
29 May 2019, 16:10 PM
#54
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 May 2019, 16:05 PMLago
Or just cut all these unnecessary chaff abilities that don't really add anything.

All they serve to do is increase the learning curve without adding any real depth.


I fully support replacing vet 1 abilities with unique tailor custom abilities. I have actually been advocating for that almost since launch.

Imo the change was in the right direction. The implementation thou was less than perfect.
29 May 2019, 17:43 PM
#55
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 607

Just call it something else, like change the guard version (which is offensive) to "firing position" or "go prone".
29 May 2019, 20:20 PM
#56
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 495 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 May 2019, 04:33 AMNaOCl
Rename Penals to Rifles and I'm happy. I hate that they're called penals.



+1

Rename them whatever the Russian word for riflemen or rifleman or rifle squad or something similar.

“Strelky” or something like that.
29 May 2019, 20:43 PM
#57
avatar of Osinyagov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1389 | Subs: 1




+1

Rename them whatever the Russian word for riflemen or rifleman or rifle squad or something similar.

“Strelky” or something like that.


Agreed, and i am still believe this change can be done, even with solid UI assets for that. I have somewhere old Kasarov's assets for Strelky. As always, if Relic agreed, this change can be done. I found my old ideas about how it should be done.

This design suggestion is suggestion, which requires to add new portraits to the game. But will make game a little bit better (i believe in that)!

Some months ago i and Mr.Someguy have a little conversation in QoL thread about penals design. Then we agreed, that this suggestion is not in high priority. BUT, i think it need to be added, because it easy to solve, and it is the only BIG element of stereotypes about Red Army in the multiplayer.

Now, when penals drastically changed their role on the field from assault unit with good anti-garrison/anti-building capabilities to good anti-infantry squad with meh anti-tank capabilities, i think they can drastically change their face too :D

Why i suggest it:


1. Now community making patches. IOW this suggestion will reach guys, who make patches.
2. TheMashine in comments under his video about PTRS-41 Penals agreed, that Penals never used as mainline infantry.
3. Penals works like regular infantry squad. As many people mentioned, conscripts is for support, and use them as mainline infantry not the main variant.
4. Red Army doesn't have regular infantry in the tech. Conscripts not a regularly infantry, Guards and Shocktroopers are elite infantry.
5. Other factions don't have cliche units in their teching or doctrines (Maybe except osttruppen).

How this change can be added to the game?

1. We take model of guards without green coat and give it to "penals". It looks like on the screens below(don't look om abilities and etc, only 3D model matters):


2. Rename them in the "Strelky" (Riflemen in russian), or Riflemen, or Regular Infantry Squad.
3. Change their portrait to match with new model.

29 May 2019, 21:07 PM
#58
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 495 | Subs: 1

Osinyagov, I agree with you entirely and I even like the new models you worked up.

+100
29 May 2019, 21:16 PM
#59
avatar of Osinyagov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1389 | Subs: 1

Thank you, but it's not new model, just an old unused 3D model from gamefiles.
29 May 2019, 22:08 PM
#60
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Thank you, but it's not new model, just an old unused 3D model from gamefiles.


It actually is used, that's the Guard model without the cape!
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