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Some Love to OST

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9 May 2019, 16:36 PM
#41
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783



^^^^^^^

Seriously. Buffs to Pgrens, StuG, Ostwind... not to mention all the doctrinal stuff that's getting fixed via Strategic Reserves. Why are we even talking about move love for Ost when there is already a fairly good chance that skipping Tier 1 strategies could be very strong now and whatever other fallout there may be from patch.


I still think Pzgrens should be 320 or 330 manpower though. They perform rather similarly to Sturmpio but slightly better of course. Price should be reduced slighlty.

I do think the following changes will help improve Osteehr but I guess we will have to see then.
9 May 2019, 17:28 PM
#42
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 583

grens just need a little bit more resistance to explosive damage, so it gets wiped less in the late game vs tanks and arty. giving them an extra man will just break balance, especially when your trying to buff them against other OP (5 man double brens). its just non stop power creep
9 May 2019, 18:07 PM
#43
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

grens just need a little bit more resistance to explosive damage, so it gets wiped less in the late game vs tanks and arty. giving them an extra man will just break balance, especially when your trying to buff them against other OP (5 man double brens). its just non stop power creep


Exactly what Osteehr needs or in general 4 man squads needs like I have mentioned on comment #22 also. An explosive damage resistance modifier. Everyone knows why they need it.
9 May 2019, 18:55 PM
#44
avatar of Grim

Posts: 757

Also Ost doesn't struggle in team games so buffing them would have a serious knock on effect.
9 May 2019, 19:26 PM
#45
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post9 May 2019, 18:55 PMGrim
Also Ost doesn't struggle in team games so buffing them would have a serious knock on effect.


They do kind of struggle a lot against artillery. Mainly the USF Pack Howizter that deals heck a lot of damage and wipes. It is just insane! 2 SU mines can guarantee squad wipe. OH suffers a lot from explosives. I do think it would be that big of a knock on effect if they took less damage from explosives as in contrast to what they are currently experiencing.
9 May 2019, 22:14 PM
#46
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 353

Ost is defensive. Meaning relying more on static play with inf and weapon teams. Arty is a counter to that kind of play. Ost should be more suceptible to this.
If you want more survivable inf go inf doc. Just like sov has to do for weapon upgrades.

2 su mines can garatee a wipe? Ost S mines can as well. The teller does garatee a wipe on a light vehicle.

Where ost has weaker inf in terms of ehp Sov have weaker armour and health on their vehicles. Wich makes them suffer from at weapons and mines more then ost.

I think the sov non doc vehicles should recieve less damage from any at source because of how weak their armour and hp are.

I dont think giving explosive resistance is a good idea.
9 May 2019, 22:37 PM
#47
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

S mines are predictable and now that good of AI because of that. Teller mines are great.

Limited to 4 man. It is a good idea for them to get explosive resistance. SU hardly uses ammo in comparison. SU can spam mines everywhere if they wanted to. 1 mine, retreat. Try to continue with 2 guys left, hit another mine, squad wiped.

Less damage for SU vehicles would be ridiculous. They have good vehicles. Osteehr has the weakest light vehicles. Every factions has vehciles with pros and cons.
10 May 2019, 04:10 AM
#48
avatar of This.Tim

Posts: 2

I think you guys are thinking about the grens and the faction in the most boring way possible. It's like the only tactic or buff to grens that would make them work is to "increase unit size cause wipes" or "increase damage cause a-move is how I play".

OST is all about combined arms and it's good that people recognize that but they are also all about glass cannons, a lot of fragile early to early mid-game units. From line inf, to support weapons that are necessary to very fragile but high damage light vehicles. The biggest problem is that grens can't hold the line they don't have the raw health, power or probably most forgotten "abilities". Buffs to abilities are rare but in the case of grens they almost feel necessary. Faster and farther firing rifle grenades not faster traveling would help them deal with stronger long ranged units but would require thinking on the part of both players attacker and receiver. Longer range and faster firing pfaust would allow grens to engage vehicles quicker and leave faster so getting wiped is still very possible but it's also more dangerous for the vehicle to try against late game grens. These two buffs should only be given out at vet 3 but they would be significant buffs that shouldn't break grens but make them a more involved unit late game.

Aside from that they should also at vet 1 switch medkits for barbed wire and some low damage mines with pinning and vehicle stun instead of engine crits. These would play heavily into the defensive nature of these units allowing a mine to pin a unit and then grens to follow up with a rifle grenade, pfaust and some shooting. To not make them insufferable they should build slower but still be able to.

Instead of just making them Generic line infantry that are simple to use why not play towards the finesse that a bunch OST units have going for them. Make them hard units to play but rewarding in a very unique way. I feel like right now the faction is being pushed into grens do pfaust and pgrens will do the rest and that feels like a really boring design.
10 May 2019, 06:09 AM
#49
avatar of chipwreckt

Posts: 725

L2P with snipers.

Good game with some high level ostheer power:

https://www.coh2.org/replay/90403/hour-long-slugfest-on-nexus
10 May 2019, 08:41 AM
#50
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 353

S mines are predictable and now that good of AI because of that. Teller mines are great.

Limited to 4 man. It is a good idea for them to get explosive resistance. SU hardly uses ammo in comparison. SU can spam mines everywhere if they wanted to. 1 mine, retreat. Try to continue with 2 guys left, hit another mine, squad wiped.

Less damage for SU vehicles would be ridiculous. They have good vehicles. Osteehr has the weakest light vehicles. Every factions has vehciles with pros and cons.


Sov can plant mines every where if they want. Yes that true. But they dont garantee wipes unlike ost mines. Loosing a light vehicle to a single 50 muni mine is much much more impactfull then loosing a squad wich cost mostly less then the lv on a 90 muni demo. Even more for a supercharged demo. And yet the demo got nerfed out of excistance.

As for soviet not using as much ammo. They dont have non doc ai upgrades. Like you said pro,s and cons. But just get minisweepers and your good. Vs mine spam.

The 2 model cap already is a buff to 4 men squads. Adding explosive resistance will make it possible to have no models dying on hitting a mine.thats the only outcome of such a buff.

The part about sov vehicles needing at resistance was a joke. Because givinng ost explosive resistance is as well. Sov vehicles do fine. Cons struglle late game just as grenadiers do. Both have doctrinal option to counter act weaknesses. Its just a fact of the game.
10 May 2019, 09:09 AM
#51
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783



Sov can plant mines every where if they want. Yes that true. But they dont garantee wipes unlike ost mines. Loosing a light vehicle to a single 50 muni mine is much much more impactfull then loosing a squad wich cost mostly less then the lv on a 90 muni demo. Even more for a supercharged demo. And yet the demo got nerfed out of excistance.

As for soviet not using as much ammo. They dont have non doc ai upgrades. Like you said pro,s and cons. But just get minisweepers and your good.

The 2 model cap already is a buff to 4 men squads. Adding explosive resistance will make it possible to have no models dying on hitting a mine.thats the only outcome of such a buff.

The part about sov vehicles needing at resistance was a joke. Because givinng ost explosive resistance is as well. Sov vehicles do fine. Cons struglle late game just as grenadiers do. Both have doctrinal option to counter act weaknesses. Its just a fact of the game.


There is no denying in the fact that Osteehr does somewhat suffer heavily under mortar or arty pretty heavily in contrast to other factions.

SU has way better chances of sustaining fire and arty in my experiences in the game. More forgiving in that sense. It is rather unfortunate that SU dont really have non-doc AI upgrades for infantry.

Maybe "Oraah ability" should be revamped, like boost performance (inspiration morale boost), shoots faster and reload faster. Create Aggression even defensive play. Move slower. Lasts 5 sec for 15 ammo maybe. That would make it more interesting although it is an ability.

Maybe the Explosive resistance is not the best resolution. Even Suggesting anything about improving the survivability seems already a bad resolution for many. Do not know why exactly that is a huge issue. What is your resolution to Grens or wehrmachts survivability?

I suggested another new upgrade for Grens having an "extra man" at the cost of not being able to equip MG42 (sacrificing firepower in the process). That seemed like a fair prospect which somehow many seemed to have disagreed upon. Looks like there is no sympathy towards this idea.
10 May 2019, 09:30 AM
#52
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 353



There is no denying in the fact that Osteehr does somewhat suffer heavily under mortar or arty pretty heavily in contrast to other factions.

SU has way better chances of sustaining fire and arty in my experiences in the game. More forgiving in that sense. It is rather unfortunate that SU dont really have non-doc AI upgrades for infantry.

Maybe "Oraah ability" should be revamped, like boost performance (inspiration morale boost), shoots faster and reload faster. Create Aggression even defensive play. Move slower. Lasts 5 sec for 15 ammo maybe. That would make it more interesting although it is an ability.

Maybe the Explosive resistance is not the best resolution. Even Suggesting anything about improving the survivability seems already a bad resolution for many. Do not know why exactly that is a huge issue. What is your resolution to Grens or wehrmachts survivability?

I suggested another new upgrade for Grens having an "extra man" at the cost of not being able to equip MG42 (sacrificing firepower in the process). That seemed like a fair prospect which somehow many seemed to have disagreed upon. Looks like there is no sympathy towards this idea.


Mortars are mostly standardized now. Arty esp sov arty is a rng fest atm. So if killed by arty is unlucky atm imo. On the arty front you cant do much really, other wise why bother with arty if it cant break up the enemy. Su 82mm mortar is the best example of this.

Them main survivability issue is double equiped ukf/usf main lines with their nades and 5 models. They need nerfing a long side with volks and penals. I believe this will improve the grens survivabity a lot and keep it balanced.

Soviet by design can take a lot of fire, but they face a lot more fire power. A p4 quite often kills 3 conscripts in 1 shot and fires faster then the t34. A t34/t70 usually kills only one but quickly get the next model. The rifle and bundle can completly wreck 6 men. Molly doesnt and stachel gives ages to avoid.

I do applaud you for being creative with solutions to problems even while i disagree. Cheers mate.
10 May 2019, 17:05 PM
#53
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783



Mortars are mostly standardized now. Arty esp sov arty is a rng fest atm. So if killed by arty is unlucky atm imo. On the arty front you cant do much really, other wise why bother with arty if it cant break up the enemy. Su 82mm mortar is the best example of this.

Them main survivability issue is double equiped ukf/usf main lines with their nades and 5 models. They need nerfing a long side with volks and penals. I believe this will improve the grens survivabity a lot and keep it balanced.

Soviet by design can take a lot of fire, but they face a lot more fire power. A p4 quite often kills 3 conscripts in 1 shot and fires faster then the t34. A t34/t70 usually kills only one but quickly get the next model. The rifle and bundle can completly wreck 6 men. Molly doesnt and stachel gives ages to avoid.

I do applaud you for being creative with solutions to problems even while i disagree. Cheers mate.


I do appreciate your opinion and for your understanding.

The fact other mainlines are better and have more equipment kind of downgrades Grens and Cons to that extent. Grens and Cons on a similar bases are supportive defensive units. While Grens deal more firepower and Cons have more men (they are exact opposites).

It is difficult to evaluate what the best ideal solution would be and I do agree that other mainline infantries do have the upper hand in many more situations due to the factors you have already stated.

Grens and Cons could get more upgrade options at least where Cons can get more firepower and Grens more survivability. That would be nice. Do not know what exactly, but those are the things that both of these mainline infantry needs.
10 May 2019, 17:18 PM
#54
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663

Dear everybody :)
1. make mg42 line of sight as long as maxim.
2. Do sth to stop pack howie making insane dmg to ost infantry.
3. Allow stock repair bunker option

a player with a lot of coh experience and insight, a fan since coh1 beginning :) Trust me on my diagnosis
10 May 2019, 19:33 PM
#55
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13780 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2019, 17:18 PMachpawel
Dear everybody :)
1. make mg42 line of sight as long as maxim.

AKA do nothing.

2. Do sth to stop pack howie making insane dmg to ost infantry.

That it is supposed to do, it isn't supposed to be 2nd mortar, but a mini howitzer, howitzers do a lot of damage.

3. Allow stock repair bunker option

10 May 2019, 19:47 PM
#56
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

Dear everybody :)
1. make mg42 line of sight as long as maxim.
2. Do sth to stop pack howie making insane dmg to ost infantry.
3. Allow stock repair bunker option

a player with a lot of coh experience and insight, a fan since coh1 beginning :) Trust me on my diagnosis


1./ I do not think improving just the MG would improve wehrmachts current state. MG42 is perfectly fine as it is.

2./ The Howie is very devastating. I think nerfing the damage and increase AOE will help a little or just nerf the damage. That I agree on. It is extremely powerful. One of those is equivalent to 2 mortars firepower. It is just that good. I think wehr mortars needs to shoot a little faster. Howie shoots at the same speed.

3./ It is not a bad idea. I would rather improve both the engineers and pioneers for both SU and WEHR. Make it fair and square. It is a good idea tough.

Wehr units just need some options to improve their state of survivability mostly, it is what is required. Hold ground better and even to push with infantry better. Same goes with SU mainline infantry, Conscripts. They need some firepower upgrades. Maybe Revamp Oraah ability could be an alternative.
10 May 2019, 19:49 PM
#57
avatar of bulatcr

Posts: 126

In my opinion Ostheer is almost equal to Wehrmacht from coh1, except one little thing which is about infantry play. There is one thing which makes the gameplay a bit superior at early mid stage. When you get grens after volks it feels like you get better version of infantry unit, it feels like upgraded infantry.
Now look at grens and pzgrens in coh2. They are totally different. It doesn't feels like you get a better infantry. It's just another inf unit with different abilities and another role.
So what I suggest is to look at coh1 example here. This will automatically exclude some questionable suggestions like 5 men grens etc.
10 May 2019, 19:52 PM
#58
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6406 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2019, 19:49 PMbulatcr
In my opinion Ostheer is almost equal to Wehrmacht from coh1, except one little thing which is about infantry play. There is one thing which makes the gameplay a bit superior at early mid stage. When you get grens after volks it feels like you get better version of infantry unit, it feels like upgraded infantry.
Now look at grens and pzgrens in coh2. They are totally different. It doesn't feels like you get a better infantry. It's just another inf unit with different abilities and another role.
So what I suggest is to look at coh1 example here. This will automatically exclude some questionable suggestions like 5 men grens etc.

The infatry in coh1 is an example to avoid.

Different HP and Different type of armor made the system extremely complicated.
10 May 2019, 22:37 PM
#59
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

Maybe some armour upgrade for grens is just what it needs. Limited to 2 models. Costs 45 ammo. No 5 man required. This is good!:hansWUT:

11 May 2019, 02:44 AM
#60
avatar of blancat

Posts: 602

Maybe some armour upgrade for grens is just what it needs. Limited to 2 models. Costs 45 ammo. No 5 man required. This is good!:hansWUT:




Don't try to make the game shoddy any more
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