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Soviet General Faction Changes - New cmdr mod 5.0

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19 Apr 2019, 12:57 PM
#61
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Apr 2019, 12:04 PMLago


If the SU-76 isn't good against mediums, what's it for?

Its casemate design makes it suck against lights (which'll just circle-strafe it) and it's too small to fight heavies.

Su-76 does not need 100% chance to hit PzIV at range 60 (max) to be good.

Accuracy that is so high is simply broken.

You can watch this replay and debate SU-76 performance with Frost.

In many cases Soviet unit have very powerful vet bonuses and if one buff their base stats one also has to nerf their veterancy bonuses.
19 Apr 2019, 13:02 PM
#62
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Apr 2019, 12:57 PMVipper
Su-76 does not need 100% chance to hit PzIV at range 60 (max) to be good.

Accuracy that is so high is simply broken.


It is combined with an IS-2 or KV-2 call-in.

But you scratch those and it's fine imho. I'd like to see similar performance on the StuG (which is in direct competition with its respective medium) but I see no problem with the SU-76m being reliable.

If it's too effective, I'd tone down the fire rate before handing its performance over to the random number gods.
19 Apr 2019, 13:08 PM
#63
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Apr 2019, 13:02 PMLago


It is combined with an IS-2 or KV-2 call-in.

But you scratch those and it's fine imho. I'd like to see similar performance on the StuG (which is in direct competition with its respective medium) but I see no problem with the SU-76m being reliable.

If it's too effective, I'd tone down the fire rate before handing its performance over to the random number gods.

Coh is based on RNG +100% chance to score a hit at max range is goes against the games design and is simply not necessary.

Else one has to lower penetration more or the unit will again be spammed.
19 Apr 2019, 13:14 PM
#64
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Apr 2019, 13:08 PMVipper

Coh is based on RNG +100% chance to score a hit at max range is goes against the games design and is simply not necessary.

Else one has to lower penetration more or the unit will again be spammed.


Penetration IS lowered together with accuracy buff.
You still have RNG, even against ost P4 now, just not a string of RNG checks.

Also, blitz lowers target size.

And no, CoH is NOT based on RNG, its based on PREDICTABLE RNG, vast majority of the time you can predict which unit will win, unless some really bad luck is involved.

Only pure RNG weapons in the whole game are indirect fire weapons.

Also, there is plenty of weapons who have 100% hit chance already, AT weapons included and somehow they aren't a problem.

Underused supplemental unit won't suddenly change that, especially since the reason it was spammed was -NOT- its AT performance(AT buffs simply made it relevant against anything), but efficient barrage when multiple units performed it and muni cost effectively killed that.
19 Apr 2019, 13:20 PM
#65
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Apr 2019, 13:08 PMVipper
Coh is based on RNG +100% chance to score a hit at max range is goes against the games design and is simply not necessary.

Else one has to lower penetration more or the unit will again be spammed.


With a munitions cost on the barrage that's not all that different to spamming any other sort of TD. Two SU-76ms have a higher damage output than one SU-85, but lack self-spotting and their penetration drops off once you go above an Ostheer P4.

You could play with their range and fire rate if they're too effective versus Ostheer T3, but I see nothing wrong with a low performance variance in a reactive counter unit.
19 Apr 2019, 13:42 PM
#66
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Apr 2019, 13:20 PMLago

With a munitions cost on the barrage that's not all that different to spamming any other sort of TD. Two SU-76ms have a higher damage output than one SU-85, but lack self-spotting and their penetration drops off once you go above an Ostheer P4.

You could play with their range and fire rate if they're too effective versus Ostheer T3, but I see nothing wrong with a low performance variance in a reactive counter unit.

The barrage gets a massive buff with veterancy becoming superior to that of zis and with changes to mortars it is actually very effective. This unis have 1.5 kill radius compare to 0 mortars have that increase even more with veterancy. Keep in mind that the unit has extremely low XP value and vet very fast.

Su-76 do not lack self-spotting they have tracking.

Again watch the replay. The accuracy is simply too high while penetration remains high. Even with lower accuracy the unit would hardly miss due to collision hits.
19 Apr 2019, 13:49 PM
#67
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Apr 2019, 13:42 PMVipper
The barrage gets a massive buff with veterancy becoming superior to that of zis and with changes to mortars it is actually very effective.


But it costs munitions. When it didn't, spammed SU-76ms could all fire it.

With a muni cost it doesn't scale when you spam them.

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Apr 2019, 13:42 PMVipper
Again watch the replay. The accuracy is simply too high while penetration remains high. Even with lower accuracy the unit would hardly miss due to collision hits.


Then surely lowering accuracy wouldn't achieve the intended goal?

There are plenty of other variables to play with if it's too strong.
19 Apr 2019, 13:51 PM
#68
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Apr 2019, 13:49 PMLago

But it costs munitions. When it didn't, spammed SU-76ms could all fire it.

With a muni cost it doesn't scale when you spam them.

Think we have to agree to disagree.

One more the unit has very XP value and vet and scales very fast.

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Apr 2019, 13:49 PMLago

Then surely lowering accuracy wouldn't achieve the intended goal?

There are plenty of other variables to play with if it's too strong.

The new accuracy can stay as long as the vet bonus accuracy is removed.

As I have pointed out many Soviet unit have high vet bonuses and increasing base stats make the OP at higher XP levels.
19 Apr 2019, 13:52 PM
#69
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Apr 2019, 13:51 PMVipper

The new accuracy can stay as long as the vet bonus accuracy is removed.

Compensate it by changing dmg bonus to 40 and you've got a deal.
19 Apr 2019, 14:19 PM
#70
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1602 | Subs: 3

I'd increase su-76 health to 480hp so it doesn't get completely memed by fausts. It would still have the same performance against tanks and unvetted puma's.
19 Apr 2019, 15:22 PM
#71
avatar of Qeit

Posts: 61

M42.
Nope, 30 range is too low. 40, please.

SU-76.
There was that problem with Su-76 pen (and its still there I guess), but accuracy bonus is really good and fits IMO.

M5.
Need to test that one, so no comments.

Conscripts.
I understand the idea, but it's still clearly lacking. Literally zero reason outside of PPSh docks. It doesn't adress main issues with cons (simply because cons themselves are bad) - they still drop like flies without vet against anything with vet 2 or higher. They only became better at utility role and thats pretty much it. 1 squad with it would be useful, otherwise - no, I am totally not impressed even with 1.2 exp gained modifier. Maybe with 1.3... XD
-15 fuel for AT grenades, on the other side, is really-really good, hope it will stay that way.
19 Apr 2019, 16:46 PM
#72
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

I'm all for buffing the SU-76, but it becoming a solid destroyer of medium tanks makes locking heavies to tech in this patch an even greater priority.

Otherwise all you've achieved is giving IS-2/KV-2 stallers a mobile answer to medium tanks.
19 Apr 2019, 17:34 PM
#73
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1849 | Subs: 1

If the 7 Man Cons don't cut the mustard then why not give the 7th man a PPSH (maybe buffed to closer to Thompson levels?) It would further emphasize their role as troops that do better at closer range while still being slightly better DPS wise. If you wanted to be thematic about it you could have 7th man be a commissar model and have it be squad leader type situation.
19 Apr 2019, 17:41 PM
#74
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

...give the 7th man a PPSH...7th man be a commissar model and have it be squad leader type situation.

+1
19 Apr 2019, 17:51 PM
#75
avatar of Qeit

Posts: 61

you could have 7th man be a commissar model and have it be squad leader type situation.

I also had thought of it, but it may create some problems with MGs, Mortars and other stuff.
19 Apr 2019, 21:54 PM
#76
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

1 model with a ppsh would be a joke.
Phy
19 Apr 2019, 22:04 PM
#77
avatar of Phy

Posts: 509 | Subs: 1

Cons need LMGs - I think that 7 man con upgrade is just MP draining.

+1.

This rework tbh is 0 appealing.
19 Apr 2019, 22:13 PM
#78
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

1 model with a ppsh would be a joke.


The real joke is how the balance team views conscripts (no offense). In their eyes they are a mainline infantry, but their combat capabilities are irrelevant. What’s important is their “utility”, while if you want combat capabilities you should just use penals.

At this point just delete conscripts and put penals in T0. We’d all be better off.
19 Apr 2019, 22:19 PM
#79
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

The real joke is how the balance team views conscripts (no offense). In their eyes they are a mainline infantry, but their combat capabilities are irrelevant. What’s important is their “utility”, while if you want combat capabilities you should just use penals.

At this point just delete conscripts and put penals in T0. We’d all be better off.


Penals in T0 would be a disaster. Currently they're balanced out by how slowly they deploy: if you could pump them out like Cons it'd be a nightmare.
19 Apr 2019, 22:23 PM
#80
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Apr 2019, 22:19 PMLago


Penals in T0 would be a disaster. Currently they're balanced out by how slowly they deploy: if you could pump them out like Cons it'd be a nightmare.

His point is that conscripts core problems are being ignored ever since WFA release and there is massive opposition to address them with what's needed and bandaids are being slapped on open fracture issue.

7th man is indeed interesting start, but if it proves to be inefficient and not enough, there is still possibility of it getting better.

Issue is being addressed and cons being attrition unit instead of DPS powerhouse might actually work if the changes are taken sufficiently far and 7th man is pretty radical start, so I'll remain optimistic.

I want to play dank hunters without penal spamming so bad.....
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