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Soviet General Faction Changes - New cmdr mod 5.0

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19 Apr 2019, 22:39 PM
#81
avatar of miragefla
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

Can people actually test the 7th man before assuming? Get some games in to help us tune it.
19 Apr 2019, 23:04 PM
#82
avatar of le_saucisson_masque

Posts: 485 | Subs: 1

Can people actually test the 7th man before assuming? Get some games in to help us tune it.


people whinig even thought they didn't give a try...
Have some god damn faith people, coh 2 has been released in 2013 which means we are only 6 years on the 10 years relic support plan. 4 years left to balance conscripts, then we get coh3 and we start again :banana:
19 Apr 2019, 23:19 PM
#83
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 607

Can people actually test the 7th man before assuming? Get some games in to help us tune it.


For what it's worth, I have a bit, though testing is difficult since the AI isn't fully fixed and arranging games is tedious, but the few I played (and I plan to play more), here are my thoughts:

1) if you have a weapon upgrade, it is still better than going for the 7th man -- especially the SVT, which IMO is actually a good upgrade and I would love to see it be a non-doc one.

2) the 7 man situation's greatest strength has to do with capturing/recapturing team weapons, and being able to merge 2 or more squads before having to go back to reinforce.

Example: you capture an HMG with a 6 man con squad, you can't merge with that captured weapon unless you want to lose your entire con squad. Now you can and retreat the remaining 1 model to reinforce normally. Or, perhaps there is an AT squad at 4 models and a mortar squad at 2 models, and you can now reinforce both without losing your original conscript squad. This is _neat_ but IMO not enough to salvage the use of conscripts altogether. Otherwise, their offensive ability is still whack. Perhaps if the upgrade came with some other diffuse bonus other than veterancy, there may be something to work with, but otherwise it doesn't change much.
20 Apr 2019, 00:11 AM
#84
avatar of Puppetmaster
Patrion 310

Posts: 871

I'd always wondered how it would be if cons were changed into a gren like squad (long range damage - obviously not the same because of 6 man) and then changing penals into a strictly close - mid range squad. That way cons could have some semi reliable damage without needing to be in the enemies face.
but the squads serving different roles.
20 Apr 2019, 01:30 AM
#85
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 607

Tightrope's video on the topic mentions that most infantry can out-range the canister shots. That IMO is a deal breaker entirely; it should definitely be upped to 40 at the bare minimum.
20 Apr 2019, 02:14 AM
#86
avatar of miragefla
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

Tightrope's video on the topic mentions that most infantry can out-range the canister shots. That IMO is a deal breaker entirely; it should definitely be upped to 40 at the bare minimum.


We'll probably bump it up to 35 which is basic infantry range.
20 Apr 2019, 02:57 AM
#87
avatar of Wreathlit Noël
Donator 11

Posts: 169

If the 7th man upgrade doesn't quite give cons the boost that they need then consider and giving them a few guards mosins through some means(combined or separate upgrade). Guards mosins aren't quite as strong as SVT rifles and maintain the theme of only having bolt-action rifles. Guards mosins apparently have really good moving stats, however.
20 Apr 2019, 07:04 AM
#88
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2114 | Subs: 2

I therefore tried to whine about the absurdity of this decision. And so it gives an update: this is a later update of T4 (10-15 minutes from the start of the game) increases squad size by 1, reduces squad reinforce cost to 17 and increases veterancy gain by 20%. Takes up one weapon slot. Costs 50 munitions.

- increases squad size by 1 does not provide qualitative improvements in survival and increase damage, by this time the enemy has a veteran: PzGrens, Grens with MG-42, Folks with STG-44, Obers who who do not care on the 7th person.
- reduces squad reinforce cost to 17 Your conscripts are still the same food, but cheaper.
- increases veterancy gain by 20%. Absolutely pointless ability for T4, if you are a good player, your conscripts already have 2-3 veterans by this time, if you’re bad you’ll just feed the enemy and a 20% increase for your conscripts will still not give you anything.
- Takes up one weapon slot. Well, here, and so everything is obvious, the change is a dubious bonus for a real bonus in MG-42 / MG-34 / Shсreсk / Allied weapons in team games

Bottom line: conscripts need a qualitative improvement in the late game to be competitive in the late game, the position: they are not the main infantry but are needed just to build a sandbag and throw a grenade - they also do not stand up to objective criticism, they can do it with six people and one gun slot. This update does nothing to help conscripts be better in the late game.
20 Apr 2019, 07:19 AM
#89
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

At Vet 3, 7 men cons are very good at close and mid-ish range. I didn't do math, but from testing, their dps seems quite close to vet 5 volksgrenadiers with stg44.

It's a nice alternative to a weapon upgrade non doc.
Remains to be seen if it will be worth in some situation over ppsh.
20 Apr 2019, 11:45 AM
#90
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

One thing I will say is that this would be a much better improvement if:

- It came out as a global upgrade for like 200mp - 30 fuel at T3.
- It did not affect the cons weapon slot

There is another way though. If you're hell bent on penals always being the mainline and cons having a utility role, then why not make the ptrs package from tank hunter available without a commander? Conscripts having a pure utility/AT role would synergize much better with the way the faction currently works.
20 Apr 2019, 12:36 PM
#91
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17619 | Subs: 9

One thing I will say is that this would be a much better improvement if:

- It came out as a global upgrade for like 200mp - 30 fuel at T3.
- It did not affect the cons weapon slot

There is another way though. If you're hell bent on penals always being the mainline and cons having a utility role, then why not make the ptrs package from tank hunter available without a commander? Conscripts having a pure utility/AT role would synergize much better with the way the faction currently works.

If it didn't took weapon slot, it would make PPSH and PTRS(AT nade assault) cons insane.
Again, if it proves to be insufficient, just slap between 5 and 15% accuracy on the upgrade and call it a day.

Additional man do help a bit, especially since that one extra model is pretty much always sniped on approach, leaving "vanila" 6 man con to actually engage.

Make sure the upgrade doesn't hog extra pop and if needed give slight bonus accuracy and it'll be exactly what cons need.
20 Apr 2019, 13:08 PM
#92
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

- increases veterancy gain by 20%. Absolutely pointless ability for T4, if you are a good player, your conscripts already have 2-3 veterans by this time, if you’re bad you’ll just feed the enemy and a 20% increase for your conscripts will still not give you anything.


20 Apr 2019, 13:10 PM
#93
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

- increases veterancy gain by 20%. Absolutely pointless ability for T4, if you are a good player, your conscripts already have 2-3 veterans by this time, if you’re bad you’ll just feed the enemy and a 20% increase for your conscripts will still not give you anything


If your unit preservation is perfect, sure.

The point is to allow new Conscript squads to catch up.
20 Apr 2019, 13:27 PM
#94
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2114 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2019, 13:10 PMLago


If your unit preservation is perfect, sure.

The point is to allow new Conscript squads to catch up.


I understood the meaning of this improvement, I lost the squad and built a new one and it was done to compensate because the conscripts suck in the late game, they cannot compete with other infantry, there is no damage - there is no experience. This is not a buff, it is a blurring problem. If they had a weapon upgrade, they deal damage - they are useful as an infantry unit and get good experience without a multiplier.
20 Apr 2019, 13:31 PM
#95
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

By the time you've paid for that late came conscript squad, 7 man upgrade, AT and Molotov package combo - you'd have been better off just buying another squad of guards.

A unit that can do damage and therefore doesn't need to pay for quicker vetting. And once it hits vet 3, beacuse Guards can do damage, the vet bonuses are more impactful.

The problem isn't that cons can't vet up (eventually). The problem is that even vet 3 cons are a pushover lategame. Reaching vet 3 faster doesn't change the fact that their combat potential, at vet 3, is insufficient. Helping them reach their end game faster doesn't fix the fact that their end game is poor.
20 Apr 2019, 13:47 PM
#96
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 366

The conscript upgrade isn't as bad as I thought, the only thing I say is that getting all 7 troops in cover can be a pain.

I think a in-cover bonus would seal the deal, nothing else would need to changed.
20 Apr 2019, 13:51 PM
#97
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

I think there is a general consensus about T4 being too late for this. T3 seems reasonable.

Personally I would love to see this ditched for a UKF rate of fire/accuracy bonus in cover.
20 Apr 2019, 13:55 PM
#98
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 366

I think there is a general consensus about T4 being too late for this. T3 seems reasonable.

Personally I would love to see this ditched for a UKF rate of fire/accuracy bonus in cover.


Only thought the in-cover buff would work because it worked for ostruppen. True through, tier 4 seems too late, tier 3 is about right.
20 Apr 2019, 14:09 PM
#99
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

I like 7-man. It ups their durability and it's a 17% increase in firepower. It also makes them better at Merge.

If it's really not got enough, make it 8-man. That's a much more aesthetic number.
20 Apr 2019, 14:19 PM
#100
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17619 | Subs: 9

I think there is a general consensus about T4 being too late for this. T3 seems reasonable.

Personally I would love to see this ditched for a UKF rate of fire/accuracy bonus in cover.

General consensus is, T4 is perfect for con upgrade as:

-provides alternative option to rushing T-70(not really atm, but theoretically)
-still can arrive relatively fast
-doesn't impact early game, where cons are ok-ish
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