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31 Mar 2019, 10:45 AM
#101
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1179



No. The LMG34 is not more useful.

The IR STG44s actually have more DPS than the LMG34 at max range as long as the enemy unit is in cover, because of their 0.9 cover accuracy multiplier.


The rare chance of grabbing a second LMG or if the enemy never uses cover are the only two scenarios in which the LMG34 upgrade is better.




That's false

Dps on heavy cover enemy for LMG34 at max range: 14.22 x 0.5 = 7.11

Dps on heavy cover enemy for IR stg at max range: 3.183 x 0.9 = 2,86

From 23 range up to 35 range even with the cover bonus an IR STG deals less dps to the enemy
31 Mar 2019, 11:02 AM
#102
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1690

Aye I was wrong about range 35, because I accidentally looked at the vetted value for the IR STG44.

But they are still about as good at all ranges up to about 25-30 because they get two of them.

At range 23 an IR STG44 squad has more DPS than an LMG 34 squad against a unit in cover.


31 Mar 2019, 11:10 AM
#103
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 12961 | Subs: 6



That's false

Dps on heavy cover enemy for LMG34 at max range: 14.22 x 0.5 = 7.11

Dps on heavy cover enemy for IR stg at max range: 3.183 x 0.9 = 2,86

From 23 range up to 35 range even with the cover bonus an IR STG deals less dps to the enemy

Psst, there are 2 IR STGs.
31 Mar 2019, 11:11 AM
#104
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1179

Aye I was wrong about range 35, because I accidentally looked at the vetted value for the IR STG44.

But they are still about as good at all ranges up to about 25-30 because they get two of them.

At range 23 an IR STG44 squad has more DPS than an LMG 34 squad against a unit in cover.




"But they are still about as good at all ranges up to about 25-30 because they get two of them."

Not willing to do the math now but it is still subpar as a choice at 29 range i think
It removes 2 kar98k instead of 1. At 27 range rhoughly there should be no difference from a kar98k and stg it without accounting for green cover bonus.

At 30 or 29 range even with cover bonus lmg34 should start to surpass it.

Ir stg is overall better as upgrade, but it is never better at any range over lmg 34
31 Mar 2019, 11:12 AM
#105
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 232



No. The LMG34 is not more useful.

The IR STG44s actually have more DPS than the LMG34 at max range as long as the enemy unit is in cover, because of their 0.9 cover accuracy multiplier.


The rare chance of grabbing a second LMG or if the enemy never uses cover are the only two scenarios in which the LMG34 upgrade is better.



I test with CCM and Range map
30m ,MG34 ober and IR ober shot each other
only in heavy cover,IR ober can give MG34 ober almost same damange
Final score, MG34:IR 4:2,and IR ober almost die,in one test,MG34 ober only lost half HP but didn't lost man
31 Mar 2019, 11:13 AM
#106
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1179

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Mar 2019, 11:10 AMKatitof

Psst, there are 2 IR STGs.


That won't change much for anyone gifted of a functioning brain since 2,86 x 2 < 7.11

That without counting the extra kar 98k elite
31 Mar 2019, 11:19 AM
#107
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 12961 | Subs: 6



That won't change much for anyone gifted of a functioning brain since 2,86 x 2 < 7.11

That without counting the extra kar 98k elite

And if range drops only slightly, StGs outperform LMG vs cover.

Most optimal is having 1 of each.
31 Mar 2019, 11:24 AM
#108
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1179

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Mar 2019, 11:19 AMKatitof

And if range drops only slightly, StGs outperform LMG vs cover.


Of 5 meters at least. It means that ir stg never outdps lmg34 in any condition over 30 range.
31 Mar 2019, 11:41 AM
#109
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 12961 | Subs: 6



Of 5 meters at least. It means that ir stg never outdps lmg34 in any condition over 30 range.

And there is very little natural green cover at exact range 35 on any map.

Unless you specifically place sandbags like that for you and opponent, you'll almost always will have less then 30 range between green covers or one side will have weaker/no cover at all.
31 Mar 2019, 11:57 AM
#110
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1179

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Mar 2019, 11:41 AMKatitof

And there is very little natural green cover at exact range 35 on any map.

Unless you specifically place sandbags like that for you and opponent, you'll almost always will have less then 30 range between green covers or one side will have weaker/no cover at all.


There's very little natural green cover everywhere in late game, most of the squads are high ra bren/bars/guards/penals that will immidiatly engage ir obers at max range anyway or have set up sandbags and engage at 35 range nontheless if smoke or flanks aren't used. No cover means no dps advantage, that means ir stg is less effective at 15 or over ranges compared to lmg34.
31 Mar 2019, 12:01 PM
#111
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 12961 | Subs: 6

And that is precisely why I have said it is OPTIMAL to have TWO squads, ONE WITH EACH, so you are at advantage against squads of ALL ranges and cover or not.
31 Mar 2019, 12:07 PM
#112
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1179

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Mar 2019, 12:01 PMKatitof
And that is precisely why I have said it is OPTIMAL to have TWO squads, ONE WITH EACH, so you are at advantage against squads of ALL ranges and cover or not.


Which is fine, but @Sander93 claimed differently and i answered to that.
31 Mar 2019, 12:25 PM
#113
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1690

IR STG44 cover accuracy modifier works the same for both heavy cover as well as light cover, of which there is an increasingly amount of late game.
1 Apr 2019, 03:30 AM
#114
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 2873

Please keep your posts in this thread to that of feedback to the proposed commanders per specific thread. Thank you :)
2 Apr 2019, 20:09 PM
#115
avatar of addvaluejack

Posts: 194

I feel PF is overpriced.

For the same price (280MP+90MU), Allies have:
Rifleman with one M1919
Infantry Section with two Brens
Assault Engineers with one Flamethrower

PF has no chance to beat any of them.

If double shrecks are OP, can we nerf this upgrade instead of PF? Like giving PF worse version of shrecks (low accuracy maybe) or AT Rifles?

One more thing, I like the Panzer Commander change. It provides off-map indirect fire which fits this doctrine's offensive theme well.
2 Apr 2019, 20:25 PM
#116
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 5276 | Subs: 1

I feel PF is overpriced.

For the same price (280MP+90MU), Allies have:

Rifleman with one M1919
Infantry Section with two Brens
Assault Engineers with one Flamethrower

PF has no chance to beat any of them.

If double shrecks are OP, can we nerf this upgrade instead of PF? Like giving PF worse version of shrecks (low accuracy maybe) or AT Rifles?

One more thing, I like the Panzer Commander change. It provides off-map indirect fire which fits this doctrine's offensive theme well.

To make things worse the cost is not 280+90 but +1 reinforce cost.
At 280 you are buying a unit which worse than VG. (only good thing is AT grenade)
For 280+25=305 +90mu you get a units that is inferior/less cost efficient than Penal although it arrives later and cost more.
For 280 +120 you can get a good AT units with little AI.

The Tiger is also expensive at 630/230 although requiring full tech.
2 Apr 2019, 21:23 PM
#117
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2631 | Subs: 2

I think only locking the Tiger behind 2 converted HQ trucks is a little bit less restrictive, like it was done for the OKW a long time ago and also sort of how the Panzer IV H/J for the Ost treated in version 3.0.
2 Apr 2019, 22:03 PM
#118
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 232

If tiger call in like KT......replace by reworked Tiger Ace PLZ
2 Apr 2019, 22:14 PM
#119
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 629

If tiger call in like KT......replace by reworked Tiger Ace PLZ


Yes please, it would be great since that is more of their iconic vehicle okwokw
2 Apr 2019, 23:02 PM
#120
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 15

My opinion about the 3.0 changes and the basic commander:

"Panzer Commander.
Due to recent feedback, we are replacing STG 44 package with Panzer Commander.
-Infrared STG 44s now replaced with Panzer Commander; this ability affects the Tiger."


I dont think it fits the theme. And i think this ability belongs only in the Elite Armor Doc,so the other commander is still unique. My suggestion is to give Sturmpios access to the flame thrower upgrade. And instead of the additional mp40 upgrade, sturmpios gain x% accuracy and -x% recieved accuracy with the flamer upgrade.

"Tactical Movement"

In my opinion Valiant Assault fits the theme better, but Tactical Movement seems ok. The effect shouldnt work on pfs with any anti tank weapon upgrade.

"Panzerfusiliers
-Cost from 250 to 280; reinforce cost unchanged.
-G43 now takes up 1 weapon slot.
-Flare cost from 45 to 35."


My suggestion:
-Mp Cost 300-340, reinforce cost unchanged
-Start 6 men
- 2 upgrades
a; 3 g34s 100 mun
b;3 At rifle upgrade (similar stats as brits Boys AT Rifles have) 80 mun, take up all weapon slots

"Tiger
-Now requires all trucks converted to be called-in; same as the King Tiger."


I think the Ost Tiger is mediocre at best (as far as i remember: the tiger 1 was rarely used in the last 2vs2 tournament, while the is2 saw plenty usage) and its greatest strength is, that it is a call-in unit and enables tech skipping. Building all 3 trucks is a heavy investment. And even then it has to compete with the non doc KT.
My suggestion:
1. Replace tiger with Kingtiger, buff the unit and let it be buildable from schwerer hq (maybe increase cost minimaze its shock value)
or
2.
-Tiger 1 is buildable in the schwerer hq and its cost is rebalanced to 650 Mp and 250 fuel to minimaze its shock value.
-Buff one or two things from these attributes: Speed, Armor (~350, maybe as vet 3/4/5), penetration (250-280, similar to armor), turret rotation speed.
- i couldnt test the vet 4 or 5 ability against human players, but on paper it seems worthless in 1vs1 and 2vs2 (why yould you debuff your most valueable unit for munition to buff some random volks or pumas?) and i dislike aoe command unit buffs
-> replace it with some cool abilities (weak tank commander, smoke shell like churchill) or some combat buffs like range or damage.
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