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russian armor

Tiger PzKpfw VI

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9 Feb 2019, 18:51 PM
#161
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392


You're insane if you think any heavy tank should ever have more then 50 at vet2.


It is the Tiger I we are speaking about. It is no heavy tank anymore, or is the Comet a heavy too? It is forcing long-range tank-hunters ingame. Tiger I is way worse versus infantry than a Pershing, but Tiger has 2 more pop-cap and is a little bit more expensive.

so: a. make is as OP versus infantry (I don't want that, because also Pershing is OP) or b. give it more range, so it is a little bit easyer to Keep it alaive.
9 Feb 2019, 18:58 PM
#162
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

You're insane if you think any heavy tank should ever have more then 50 at vet2.


Give Ostheer a 60 range TD then so they can properly support it. As long as they don't have one, the Tiger needs to be bit more selfsufficient offensively than other heavy tanks because it has neither the armor (KT/IS-2) nor the hitpoints (KT/Churchill) to survive against a single TD.
9 Feb 2019, 19:05 PM
#163
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053



All of which arnt late game units. Sturms arnt even strong past the first five minutes.

Not like other portions of the game have an impact on the lategame /s.

Also, pgrens aren't a lategame unit and are therefore irrelevant then so are riflemen.
9 Feb 2019, 19:23 PM
#164
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



It is the Tiger I we are speaking about. It is no heavy tank anymore, or is the Comet a heavy too? It is forcing long-range tank-hunters ingame. Tiger I is way worse versus infantry than a Pershing, but Tiger has 2 more pop-cap and is a little bit more expensive.

so: a. make is as OP versus infantry (I don't want that, because also Pershing is OP) or b. give it more range, so it is a little bit easyer to Keep it alaive.

Tiger 1 is the middle ground of all the heavy tanks. It doesnnt have the armour of the KT or is-2 but it's more reliable than both of them. It doesn't have the AI of the Pershing but it can take more hits. It doesn't have the health pool of the churchill but it's quick as hell as far as heavy tanks go.

The tiger isn't the pincle of any one trait but a potent blend of all of them.

55 range would be nuts as a passive, but maybe replacing the vet 1 blitz (which has no place on a heavy tank anyways) with a spearhead kind of ability might be interesting. Give it a trade off on the bonus so it remains an ideal combined arms center piece that the ostheer champions so well
9 Feb 2019, 19:41 PM
#165
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392


Tiger 1 is the middle ground of all the heavy tanks. It doesnnt have the armour of the KT or is-2 but it's more reliable than both of them. It doesn't have the AI of the Pershing but it can take more hits. It doesn't have the health pool of the churchill but it's quick as hell as far as heavy tanks go.

The tiger isn't the pincle of any one trait but a potent blend of all of them.

55 range would be nuts as a passive, but maybe replacing the vet 1 blitz (which has no place on a heavy tank anyways) with a spearhead kind of ability might be interesting. Give it a trade off on the bonus so it remains an ideal combined arms center piece that the ostheer champions so well


Even 60 wouldn't make it a monster. Worse canon than all other tank-hunters, way more expensive. Even it's AI power is so bad, that on 60 range it would lose versus a PaK. Maybe at Vet3 with its hard reload buff it would become OP.

But 50 range would make a decent all-rounder at arrival, and then the +5 buff at Vet 2 would make 55 range. So it gets a small advantage.
9 Feb 2019, 20:04 PM
#166
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



Give Ostheer a 60 range TD then so they can properly support it. As long as they don't have one, the Tiger needs to be bit more selfsufficient offensively than other heavy tanks because it has neither the armor (KT/IS-2) nor the hitpoints (KT/Churchill) to survive against a single TD.

They have cheap, spammable, expendable TD instead.



Even 60 wouldn't make it a monster. Worse canon than all other tank-hunters, way more expensive. Even it's AI power is so bad, that on 60 range it would lose versus a PaK. Maybe at Vet3 with its hard reload buff it would become OP.


We talk about Tiger 1, not Tiger 2.
Its AI power is lower only in comparison to pershing, every other generalist vehicle got worse AI.
Moreover it would massively buff its AT and it already has 2nd highest RoF out of all limited to 1 230 fuel vehicles.
60 range would make it ISU but with turret.
Stick to reality and learn how scatter works please.
9 Feb 2019, 20:14 PM
#167
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4


They have cheap, spammable, expendable TD instead.



We talk about Tiger 1, not Tiger 2.
Its AI power is lower only in comparison to pershing, every other generalist vehicle got worse AI.
Moreover it would massively buff its AT and it already has 2nd highest RoF out of all limited to 1 230 fuel vehicles.
60 range would make it ISU but with turret.


Losing units doesn't win wars
9 Feb 2019, 20:42 PM
#168
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

"They have cheap, spammable, expendable,and UNRELIABLE in lategame, TD instead"

What? Did someome said to give stugs extra range and cloack by becoming immobile? An ambush ability?
9 Feb 2019, 20:43 PM
#169
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



Losing units doesn't win wars

Tell that to any soviet player trying to counter ele/JT by suiciding 3-4 T-34s as obviously, you're not going to kill it from the front.
"They have cheap, spammable, expendable,and UNRELIABLE in lategame, TD instead"

What? Did someome said to give stugs extra range and cloack by becoming immobile? An ambush ability?

Yeah, if there only existed an ability that could make StuGs immobile and give them 60+ range hmmm, hell, it could even boost their defence a bit.
9 Feb 2019, 20:46 PM
#170
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4


Tell that to any soviet player trying to counter ele/JT by suiciding 3-4 T-34s as obviously, you're not going to kill it from the front.

Yeah, if there only existed an ability that could make StuGs immobile and give them 60+ range hmmm, hell, it could even boost their defence a bit.


Bad design =/= make other bad design choices.
9 Feb 2019, 21:17 PM
#171
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

Yeah, if there only existed an ability that could make StuGs immobile and give them 60+ range hmmm, hell, it could even boost their defence a bit.


Rofl who in their right mind would ever hull down a Stug?
9 Feb 2019, 21:47 PM
#172
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

Hull-down is bugged and would only make a sence if StuG gets 65 range instead if 62,5 and gets the reload buff again.

How it works now it should be a normal ability by the vehicle by its own. - That would also fix the hull-down bug.


Still, Katitof, sometimes I think you are kind of retarded. The 60 rang example was a ad hoc example. I spoke about 50, vet 2 55.
9 Feb 2019, 22:05 PM
#173
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Even 60 wouldn't make it a monster. Worse canon than all other tank-hunters, way more expensive. Even it's AI power is so bad, that on 60 range it would lose versus a PaK. Maybe at Vet3 with its hard reload buff it would become OP.

But 50 range would make a decent all-rounder at arrival, and then the +5 buff at Vet 2 would make 55 range. So it gets a small advantage.

60 range would absolutely make it a monster. It would be the same as an allied TD, but with machine guns, armour, nearly double the health, blitz and aoe on the gun.
Don't get me wrong, I'm arguing the tiger is a bit squishy due to the potency of its counters but let's think about balance here while we make claims yea?

50-55 range isn't going to help the tiger quite against the thing that is pressuring it but turn the balance on its head against everything else that it isn't underperforming against.
Its just like buffing TDs because of the KT and panthers and ignoring that they now invalidate all armour values below 300 (which is most)
9 Feb 2019, 22:17 PM
#174
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1


60 range would absolutely make it a monster. It would be the same as an allied TD, but with machine guns, armour, nearly double the health, blitz and aoe on the gun.
Don't get me wrong, I'm arguing the tiger is a bit squishy due to the potency of its counters but let's think about balance here while we make claims yea?

50-55 range isn't going to help the tiger quite against the thing that is pressuring it but turn the balance on its head against everything else that it isn't underperforming against.
Its just like buffing TDs because of the KT and panthers and ignoring that they now invalidate all armour values below 300 (which is most)


Maybe give it more health so it has more consistent staying power? Armor is too rng for my taste and the health buffs for the panther helped it a ton. So maybe a tiger health buff will help it against TDs also.
9 Feb 2019, 22:28 PM
#175
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



Maybe give it more health so it has more consistent staying power? Armor is too rng for my taste and the health buffs for the panther helped it a ton. So maybe a tiger health buff will help it against TDs also.

Then you'll make it even more superior to IS-2, which has exclusively durability going for it as the gun is terribly inaccurate vs infantry and slow vs vehicles.

It already has incomparably superior AI and AT performance while having more range out of the gate.

And inb4 some smartass comes here saying "but IS-2 haz moar pen", yeah, and all axis tanks have on average more armor, panther and tiger being the only 2 exceptions, so that pen isn't relevant as much as RoF and range are.
9 Feb 2019, 22:48 PM
#176
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

IS 2 has bad accuracy, thats true. But is superior to Tiger 1 in all aspects.

- One option would be, to make IS2 pen 100%, so it cant bounce. That would make him a heavy-hunter. So change his pen to 1000 at far/mid/near. Now it can fight Elefant and Jagdtiger.

- Tiger 1 gets 55 range.

- Pershing gets same AOE like Tiger 1, to bring its AI on a normal level. It still has better accuracy. Maybe give it a high explosive ability instead, for on shot.

- Tiger 2 stays the like it is.


By that changes Tiger can fight versus tank-hunters. Because of medium pen it still bounces at IS2 and ISU152 or Comet. IS2 will win now every fight if in range versus Panther or Tiger. Also it can attack Elefant or Jagdtiger frontal, making it more usefull.

Tested it, liked it.
9 Feb 2019, 23:36 PM
#177
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

Imo the solution lies elsewhere.

Super heavy tanks need to re-balanced separately and in order to that they should have large target size and high armor value.

Medium tanks on the other would have normal target size and low Armour values.

Unit that are meant to counter Super heavy tanks like FF, SU-85, M36, Panther would have toggle AP rounds with high penetration, low accuracy, low ROF to fight Super heavies.

The same unit when facing mediums would use normal rounds with lower penetration, better accuracy.

Then these value can be used to balance the performance of this vs mediums and Super heavies separately.
9 Feb 2019, 23:58 PM
#178
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

CoH isn't man of war. Such fixes are to simple and would destroy the feeling of CoH. It would only work if you a. make a real armor system, b. increase the number of unit-types.


We are looking for small changes, not to rebalance the hole game. That is 6 years too late.



And now we have too look at the fractions and where they suck at most, or what they could need by solutuion.

- IS2 should be a heavy-counter. But it has bad accuracy and bad pen. -> make it pen 100% and it would be useful.

- Tiger 1 also has no real place… it is better to build a Panther and a Panzer 4 instead. Worst heavy ingamy, in my opinon. So, increase its range to 50 and Vet2 to 55. So it can stay fragil (counterable).
Tiger 1 still can be easy counters by PaKs and mediums.

- Tiger 2 is ok how it is in my opinion. With the IS2 change it has a new counter now.

- Pershing has too good AI. Give it same AOE as Tiger 1, but stay with the larger radius and accuracy.
10 Feb 2019, 01:05 AM
#179
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

- IS2 should be a heavy-counter. But it has bad accuracy and bad pen. -> make it pen 100% and it would be useful.


Bad pen? It has 250/230/210 which is even higher than the King Tiger.
10 Feb 2019, 04:01 AM
#180
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450

@thedarkarmadillo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSfA1DmYwGQ
Found the game from gcs2 where the tiger was used vs the pershing.
The problem lies in the power of the doctrines which they are in.

Nvm,this is a different game, but at least shows off the power of the tiger in this doc.

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