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russian armor

OKW underperforming?

22 Oct 2018, 14:55 PM
#1
avatar of Michalszym

Posts: 47

So as the last tournament showed us OKW is used less often than Ostheer. The reasons are simple. OKW vet is nerfed into the ground, once a rewarding bonus, now a liability, the tanks aren't as good as they used to be. The lack of long-range effective LMGs until obers come out is also a huge problem. Obers are unable to deal with allied double bars or double brens. Now the situation develops differently against the Soviets but I think we can agree that USSR is the best Faction for the allies. So
OKW<BF<USF<OSH=SOV
I don't know If this is true, its just how I feel after playing all the factions.
I suggest either an mg 34 or 42 for Volks Instead of STG44s or simply as an alternative, such as-You need assault troops? Go stg44s. You play more defensively-Go MG 34 or 42.
What do you guys think of this?
22 Oct 2018, 15:12 PM
#2
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3216 | Subs: 1

Fair warning: flame incoming from other people probably.

But as for the actual points you made I don't think they're correct, aside from OKW being used less than ostheer. The reason people use Ostheer over OKW is probably because Ostheer is a more complete faction. Couple that with panic puma doctrine and you have endless pressure and tools to deal with anything until you can overwhelm your opponet.

As far as factions go though with the current meta I'd say it is more like this: UKF<USF<OKW<OST<SOV

And that isn't saying USF and UKF don't have their strong suites, but their faction problems are just so large its just so much more difficult to get a win than building a T70, letting it vet and having 90 sight range or calling in a puma to counter most lights.
22 Oct 2018, 18:26 PM
#3
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2717 | Subs: 2

I already suggested an MG34 upgrade replace the Volks StGs but I am not sure if that would improve the situation instead of worsening it since I haven't tested out my idea yet.

However that would open up the potential of the Obers losing their MG34 but gaining a Panzerschreck, or 2, similar to the Panzergrenadiers since I think the OKW is currently lacking in the AT department because while the raketen is available right from the get go, it's largely underperforming.

Of course if the Obers gain the Panzerschreck(s) then they would need to be moved down in terms of tech and would overlap with the Sturmpioneers.

So the only question is what to do with the Sturms then, do they remain only with their minesweeper upgrade or do they get something extra?

I think that un-burdening them of being the OKW's AT infantry is an option but then again so is just giving them a flamethrower as well or something. Maybe a demolition specialist upgrade? I don't know really, just throwing ideas out there.
22 Oct 2018, 19:27 PM
#4
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1179

I already suggested an MG34 upgrade replace the Volks StGs but I am not sure if that would improve the situation instead of worsening it since I haven't tested out my idea yet.

However that would open up the potential of the Obers losing their MG34 but gaining a Panzerschreck, or 2, similar to the Panzergrenadiers since I think the OKW is currently lacking in the AT department because while the raketen is available right from the get go, it's largely underperforming.

Of course if the Obers gain the Panzerschreck(s) then they would need to be moved down in terms of tech and would overlap with the Sturmpioneers.

So the only question is what to do with the Sturms then, do they remain only with their minesweeper upgrade or do they get something extra?

I think that un-burdening them of being the OKW's AT infantry is an option but then again so is just giving them a flamethrower as well or something. Maybe a demolition specialist upgrade? I don't know really, just throwing ideas out there.

Obers are too expensive and comes too late to be a viable at squad

Putting sturms behind 320 mp cost and reducing of 20 mp okw starting resources would actually grant sturms the ability of having 2 shrecks without being op
22 Oct 2018, 20:27 PM
#5
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 963 | Subs: 1

The faction listing definitely goes UKF<USF<OKW<OST=SOV imo But I do agree with some points that you made.

As it is now the stg44 would always be picked instead of the mg34 upgrade if implemented. The stg44 is a direct buff to at all ranges and therefore a dps steroid at all ranges. It also allows you to dps while on the move so the mg34 wouldnt have a place if the stgs were kept as is.

As for obers they are in a bit of a weird spot. If they came out after first truck they would be really op and would require stats nerfs for sure. But now they come out pretty late and have trouble racking up the super important vet to fight the scaling allied infantry squads.
22 Oct 2018, 20:42 PM
#6
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2717 | Subs: 2


Obers are too expensive and comes too late to be a viable at squad

Putting sturms behind 320 mp cost and reducing of 20 mp okw starting resources would actually grant sturms the ability of having 2 shrecks without being op


I didn't mention their price but I did say that they would then need to be put lower in the tech tree somewhere. Maybe with a 340/360 manpower price they would effectively be the same as the Panzergrenadiers for the Ost. Give em a G43 package as well and I think it would work out pretty well.
22 Oct 2018, 22:46 PM
#7
avatar of Luciano

Posts: 693

No? The only bad thing about OKW is that it doesnt have a flame thrower and the way its tier and teching works, units themselves are fine as they are and thats a design flaw that relic/community balance team doesnt want to change because reasons, not a balance issue.
22 Oct 2018, 23:11 PM
#8
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1279 | Subs: 2

If you are struggling vs USF/UKF as OKW then you just aren't doing enough damage to them early to mid game, OKW trashes both factions and is the main reason people play Soviets in competitive, besides having a complete tool kit their T1 can fight OKW's early game and not fall behind.
23 Oct 2018, 00:39 AM
#9
avatar of tightrope
Senior Caster Badge
Patrion 39

Posts: 1189 | Subs: 14

https://www.coh2.org/news/81260/gcs2-game-stats-with-siphon-x

I am not sure what tournament you are talking about, according to these stats okw was picked slightly higher and had a higher win rate.
25 Oct 2018, 17:02 PM
#10
avatar of Michalszym

Posts: 47

Sorry, your right, I based my info from watching the top players and most used ostheer and almost everyone used the Soviets. Sorry for the mistake.
Despite this, I do struggle against the USF. Not in the early game though but in the late game. I always thought that OKWs 5 level veterancy was their main bonus and that this would counter the ability of USF to get double bar riflemen. Now its just normal veterancy but in 5 levels. BTW pls make bars only fire when stationary or give them a massive penalty for firing on the move I cant stand blobs.
The UKF is the worst I can see that now. They should have some love too.
25 Oct 2018, 17:08 PM
#11
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2690

Sorry, your right, I based my info from watching the top players and most used ostheer and almost everyone used the Soviets. Sorry for the mistake.
Despite this, I do struggle against the USF. Not in the early game though but in the late game. I always thought that OKWs 5 level veterancy was their main bonus and that this would counter the ability of USF to get double bar riflemen. Now its just normal veterancy but in 5 levels. BTW pls make bars only fire when stationary or give them a massive penalty for firing on the move I cant stand blobs.
The UKF is the worst I can see that now. They should have some love too.

Sounds more like an l2p issue. I don’t mean that in a mean way, just that you have a hard time with/want advice on countering blobs.

OKW’s best bet is usually just out-dps-ing the usf blob. Obers backing up your volks and/or a p4 or luchs (if it’s still alive) would help a lot with that. If you can use it, the Stuka is a great blob counter as well. The mg34 works ok but you have to keep stuff in front of it because if he has like 3+ rifles with double BARs they might be able to frontally wipe it (same goes for other mgs vs infantry blobs, it’s not necessarily unique to mg34 vs rifleblobs). Generally, as long as you can hold your side and not get wiped by the blob you’ll be winning since you’ll be bleeding him very badly by killing a ton of riflemen models.

BARs are more or less fine and nerfing them would make riflemen straight up worse than volksgrenadiers whole also being significantly more expensive and having slightly worse support across the board. Double BAR rifles are designed to beat volks one on one and that’s why things like obers and luchs exist.
25 Oct 2018, 17:19 PM
#12
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6399 | Subs: 1


.....
BARs are more or less fine and nerfing them would make riflemen straight up worse than volksgrenadiers whole also being significantly more expensive and having slightly worse support across the board. Double BAR rifles are designed to beat volks one on one and that’s why things like obers and luchs exist.

BAR is not fine since it is very good at all ranges and can fire on the move. It should probably be redesigned to be cheaper and used as an "assault rifle" increasing mid DPS mostly.

On the other hand VG ST44 is even worse because it closer to G43 than other ST44 allowing VG to fight at all ranges and reducing the benefits of "relative positioning". One has to first decide what will be the optimum range for VGs give them suitable weapons and then adjust allied weapon accordingly.

25 Oct 2018, 17:33 PM
#13
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 963 | Subs: 1

Sorry, your right, I based my info from watching the top players and most used ostheer and almost everyone used the Soviets. Sorry for the mistake.
Despite this, I do struggle against the USF. Not in the early game though but in the late game. I always thought that OKWs 5 level veterancy was their main bonus and that this would counter the ability of USF to get double bar riflemen. Now its just normal veterancy but in 5 levels. BTW pls make bars only fire when stationary or give them a massive penalty for firing on the move I cant stand blobs.
The UKF is the worst I can see that now. They should have some love too.


Double Bar Vet 3 Rifles are the strongest late game mainline imo. By that time volks cannot compete with them at all and youll need elite infantry or a p4 to deal with them behind a volk screen.


Best bet against USF is to beat them early to mid. Strums and Volks are much better than RE and Rifles early. Sit volks in green cover at long range and they will almost always win early against rifles. If rifles close use the strums to force them back. USF early game can mp bleed heavily and delay teching and lvs. Try to get as much territory early in order to get a fast luchs which should have a good window where it can shine against USF. If he goes LT then the luchs will bleed him heavily. If he goes Capt then you have superior mid game infantry with the stg upgrade and he has no suppression platform. Volks with STG are stronger than a single bar so try to bleed him of muni so he cant fully upgrade can be helpful also.


OKW is really good at putting on early game pressure, you have to make sure to use that advantage since OKW gets outscaled later.
25 Oct 2018, 19:38 PM
#14
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3234 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Oct 2018, 17:19 PMVipper

BAR is not fine since it is very good at all ranges and can fire on the move. It should probably be redesigned to be cheaper and used as an "assault rifle" increasing mid DPS mostly.

On the other hand VG ST44 is even worse because it closer to G43 than other ST44 allowing VG to fight at all ranges and reducing the benefits of "relative positioning". One has to first decide what will be the optimum range for VGs give them suitable weapons and then adjust allied weapon accordingly.


Agreed on both counts. Make relative positioning important again!
25 Oct 2018, 21:49 PM
#15
avatar of Reverb

Posts: 55

UKF, USF, and OKW are shit. OKW is fun to play at least.
26 Oct 2018, 00:56 AM
#16
avatar of Bravus

Posts: 503

Permanently Banned
This game is soo boring man... the maps are all soo bad...

I like only redball!

We play this crap because wont have good RTS PC game anymore.
26 Oct 2018, 01:14 AM
#17
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2690


Agreed on both counts. Make relative positioning important again!

Yeah the volks vs. riflemen matchup is one of the worst things in the game IMO because it’s basically just a dps-fest once both of them get weapon upgrades since neither of them have a defined effective range. Stuff like volks vs sections (both with upgrades) or rifles vs grens (ditto) is a little better but it’s still just odd to have infantry that are more or less good at all ranges both for people using them and people playing against them.
26 Oct 2018, 04:06 AM
#18
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 665

I have been away from this game for 1.5 years. And it hits me how bad the OKW´s anti LV abilities are. m20 bren carriers and m3 just run roughshod over them early game. Sure you have counters but they are very expensive . you need 70/60 fuel to deal with units that are 20 fuel.

Volks not scaling properly is also part of the problem.
26 Oct 2018, 04:53 AM
#19
avatar of Rhodesia

Posts: 1


I suggest either an mg 34 or 42 for Volks Instead of STG44s or simply as an alternative, such as-You need assault troops? Go stg44s. You play more defensively-Go MG 34 or 42.
What do you guys think of this?


I think of this is so silly enough.
You mean you need volks-all-mighty game regardless of the game now??
Basic Soldat of Germany should be capable of building bunkers,incen grenade, panzerfaust, laying both teller-S-mines? And LMG selection??

In only 250 MP? Think about whom you fight against.

Maybe you'll need Ober in 0 tier.
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