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Are UKF dead in 1v1?

3 Sep 2018, 19:40 PM
#21
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518



Doesn't work that way bud, AEC doesn't have any more RoF, can't bounce and have lower range while having same damage and health.


I did some tests with Puma vs AEC on close range and it most times was a close match (sometimes with the Puma as winner sometimes with AEC). The point is that if you flank the Puma you have a good chance of winning against him even tho he is more expensive.



AEC also is used to harass infantry, while Puma not really, so puma will always be reactive use,
allowing for first shot

So you are complaining about the AEC being used to harass infantry ?
3 Sep 2018, 19:55 PM
#22
avatar of cyso

Posts: 54

Welcome to the Ost vs Brits matchup where a lvl 400 ost player can beat down a level 50 Brit player :foreveralone:


made my day :rofl:
3 Sep 2018, 20:01 PM
#23
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053



I did some tests with Puma vs AEC on close range and it most times was a close match (sometimes with the Puma as winner sometimes with AEC). The point is that if you flank the Puma you have a good chance of winning against him even tho he is more expensive.

The puma is a lot faster and more manueverable and has longer range, so that's not really an effective test. Puma should always beat the AEC in a 1v1 vacuum. The puma's smoke also actually works properly and it can engine damage the AEC at vet1.

Also technically the AEC is more expensive because of the sidetech (so 280 60 goes to 380 75) but that's offset by the fact that brit tier 1 is a cheaper than okw tier 2.

Edit: formatting
3 Sep 2018, 20:57 PM
#24
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1

I feel bad for laughing.
3 Sep 2018, 22:06 PM
#25
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2260 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Sep 2018, 16:57 PMEuan
I used to main UKF but I've stayed clear of UKF in this patch so far, because I was enjoying the other armies more. But, I was determined to give them another shot, so I played a bunch of games the last couple of days. I pretty much lost every single one. Before this patch I was in the top 50 UKF players. I just lost to a rank 400 OST player (and it's not like I wasn't trying).

There is some discussion of the remaining good / bad points of UKF in the UKF strategy forum, so I won't go into unit-by-unit detail, but I'd love to get the opinion of players who main other armies so here's my two questions.

1. Am I retarded? Have I failed to adapt to changes in the latest patches? Or, is it now just standard for UKF players to lose to people 300 ranks below them?

2. If they're dead, can they be made alive again just by giving Sappers a snare (as is currently proposed)? Or are more extensive changes needed?
My personal opinion would be that we should just revert some of the multi-nerfs that have hit literally every unit on the UKF roster in the last few patches, but I know that due to having certain powerful units, they have been OP in team games in the past so some people may disagree...


ever tried the RoyalHants bren blob strat or watch a helpinghans replay? may help more than cry in forum
3 Sep 2018, 22:34 PM
#26
avatar of Euan

Posts: 177

ever tried the RoyalHants bren blob strat or watch a helpinghans replay? may help more than cry in forum


No, I obviously made it to rank 50 by not actually playing the game or trying any strategies at all, but purely by crying into my monitor until my opponent felt sorry for me and surrendered, but thanks as usual for your kind and constructive feedback to the thread

My opinion brits are UP, but all that is needed is small ajustments. DBP and the spring patch removed any crutches they had like cover bonus, UC, bren, AEC aim shot or centaur cheese. But they needed their holes patched up if the crutches were going to be taken away.

1. Make british armour somewhat decent, improving cromwell AI to match sherman or P4, up price as well by 20f. At the moment it is like the old t-24/76... cheap but meh compared to other mediums. Put firefly down to same popcap as Jagdpanzer, it already has lowest and slowest DPS in the game unless you have 200+muni just sitting around for tulips. Also give comet same range as panther. comet was overnerfed terribly and two years on still has crappy vet. Range to match panther and 30% pen at vet 3 would fix this tank.

2. make the current snare change official, really really needs to get added to the game. It's far too easy to dive brits with current Luch and Puma meta. Axis almost always will pick up a wipe or UC destroy here unless you play super conservatively with 6pdr+AEC and give him map control.

3. mobile mortar team and possibly lock mortarpit to a doctrine or something, lategame the biggest issue is just having zero inderect to counter an axis command tank cancer blob (tanks, MG or two and sniper all buffed by command P4 or given free map hax by bonus damage command panther). Good luck trying to dislodge this with tommy arty grenade or mortar pit lol :D


Yeah I think this is pretty spot-on.

Indeed while UKF have had every good unit they ever had nerfed into the ground, it actually made sense because there was a lot of cheese there, and I agree that a lot of it had to go. But then without their unique strengths, not only are Brits just an OST army with 1/4 of the units taken out, but the remaining units are actually the same or worse than their OST counterpart (worse sniper, worse MG, late engineers with less utility, suicide mortar pit, no flamer, no snare, no late game tanks anymore...).

The Wehraboos can call me out for whining if they like, but I play all armies and I just don't find myself having fun on either side of this match-up, and would like to see all armies be viable again. I also totally agree that all we want are small counter-adjustments, though I kind of see two options there.

1. Give UKF a close-range snare and mobile mortar (as suggested).
2. Just revert some of the previous nerfs, e.g. to IS, AT gun, and sniper snare.

Honestly I don't like the way that every army is slowly turning into a clone of each other, so personally I would pick the second one purely for flavour.
3 Sep 2018, 23:24 PM
#27
avatar of cyso

Posts: 54

pls upload a replay you play brit against ost
4 Sep 2018, 00:53 AM
#28
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518


The puma's smoke also actually works properly and it can engine damage the AEC at vet1.

What is the problem with AEC smoke? And what about the Immobilization rounds of the AEC (btw. did they got changed? Instead of the ability description I now get "key not found 14233353" when moving with the mouse over it)


Also technically the AEC is more expensive because of the sidetech (so 280 60 goes to 380 75) but that's offset by the fact that brit tier 1 is a cheaper than okw tier 2.

Since you don't have to pay the 100 MP/ 15 fuel upgrade every time you buy an AEC it isn't part of the units cost (and when looking at the overall costs (unit cost + teching costs)then the Puma is still more exspensive)
4 Sep 2018, 02:23 AM
#29
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053


What is the problem with AEC smoke? And what about the Immobilization rounds of the AEC (btw. did they got changed? Instead of the ability description I now get "key not found 14233353" when moving with the mouse over it)


Since you don't have to pay the 100 MP/ 15 fuel upgrade every time you buy an AEC it isn't part of the units cost (and when looking at the overall costs (unit cost + teching costs)then the Puma is still more exspensive)

The aec’s smoke seems to be very “thin” in that any lateral movement reveals it as a target again. This doesn’t happen with the puma, m20, okw flak halftrack, or panzer tactician smoke. It’s not bugged or anything (I don’t have the same problem with the ability text) but the immobilization shot requires the aec to be stationary and within range long enough to fire two rounds, so it’s much clunkier than the puma’s ability. The vehicle can also still move after the first shot so you have be close enough that it can’t just reverse out before the second shot is fired or the ability cancels without immobilizing (you only get a 50% slow from the first shot). I use both units a lot but the puma’s ability seems to be a lot easier to use, especially since it only takes one shot. The aec treadshot is great against tanks but only if it’s being supported by other tanks so it doesn’t get killed while trying to pull it off, and being stationary against a puma that long is usually not a good idea. I’ve used it a few times but mostly because of poor playing on their part.

No one really buys more than one aec though so the teching cost is really in practice just part of the unit cost. I already said in the post you quoted that he puma with overall costs does still end up being more expensive.
4 Sep 2018, 08:37 AM
#30
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833


Snip


I never claimed Luch or Puma was OP compared to AEC...

The issue is in a light vehicle meta OKW have 4-5 squads running around with snare and brits have nothing. This results in the brit player having to play extremely passively giving up territory because pushing up an aggressive AEC is suicide with volks hiding behind every flank or corner.

Meanwhile the Axis player can light vehicle harass the brits all day and just completely dive infantry then retreat under faust screen if the AEC shows up. This is the balance issue in the current mechanized meta vs brits, watch any number of high level games from GCS2 or just replays from top OKW the last few months and you'll see this exploited every game.


Thankfully Sturmpanther and co with the community mod team have decided to give royal engies a snare finally after years of relic indifference, so maybe that 70% win ratio for OKW seal clubbing brits will be a bit more balanced :clap:
4 Sep 2018, 17:24 PM
#31
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518


The aec’s smoke seems to be very “thin” in that any lateral movement reveals it as a target again.


At least it protects against Snares, unlike Puma smoke which doesn't protect against satchels and some other AT nades (this is because of other reasons not because of the smoke itself but it still is an advantage)


No one really buys more than one aec though so the teching cost is really in practice just part of the unit cost.


No. Just because you don't buy more than one it doesn't mean other players do so too. And since you do not have to pay the 15 fuel and 100 MP for every AEC again it is not part of the unit cost.


I already said in the post you quoted that he puma with overall costs does still end up being more expensive.

Then what is your point? AEC as a single unit is cheaper than Puma and even its Overall cost are still less than for Puma.



I never claimed Luch or Puma was OP compared to AEC...


And I never said that you claimed this. I just asked where your AEC is when your enemy has Luchs + Puma and advised you trying to build bofors if your enemy goes for T2 (and you haven't AEC yet) since OKWs T2 can barly do anything against them.


The issue is in a light vehicle meta OKW have 4-5 squads running around with snare

While OKW has 3-4 (4-5 Volks is something I barely see / do) squads with snares you have 4 or more units which can be upgraded with AT weapons


and brits have nothing.

AEC, Sniper, Mines and PIAT.



pushing up an aggressive AEC is suicide with volks hiding behind every flank or corner.

Keep distance and do not rush into the enemy. And if they flank you then use smoke in order to make the snares useless


Meanwhile the Axis player can light vehicle harass the brits all day


Have you tried using PIATS, AT guns, Mines or Bofors? And at least OKWs light vehicles (which actually are able to fight against enemy troops) come out after T0 and cost some fuel

4 Sep 2018, 19:19 PM
#32
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1

Puma has always been the premium counter to LV gameplay since forever. Its longer range allows it to win 90% of engagements against other LVs as long as you micro it properly. An AEC loses to a Puma almost always considering it should get first shot off with its longer range.
5 Sep 2018, 17:07 PM
#33
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

Puma has always been the premium counter to LV gameplay since forever. Its longer range allows it to win 90% of engagements against other LVs as long as you micro it properly.


Since Puma costs more than most other LVs, comes later than them and has no real AI damaged I see no problem here.


An AEC loses to a Puma almost always considering it should get first shot off with its longer range.


If you run right into the Puma then yes. But if you flank him then you got a good chance of winning
5 Sep 2018, 21:06 PM
#34
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1



Since Puma costs more than most other LVs, comes later than them and has no real AI damaged I see no problem here.



If you run right into the Puma then yes. But if you flank him then you got a good chance of winning


A good player wouldn't show his puma unless he has seen ur AEC on the map. ontop of that he would have volks near by to snare or a raken.
6 Sep 2018, 07:00 AM
#35
avatar of Storm Elite

Posts: 246

I mean, the Raketenwerfer literally doesn't penetrate UKF medium tanks.

So I guess cross your fingers and hope you get matched against OKW, if anyone still plays OKW...
6 Sep 2018, 07:16 AM
#36
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518



A good player wouldn't show his puma unless he has seen ur AEC on the map. ontop of that he would have volks near by to snare or a raken.


So a good player would sit behind the front line with his Puma together with Volks and/or a Raketen waiting for your AEC to reveal himself (even tho this should have already happen since Puma comes way later than AEC (even if you skip Luchs)? Then I guess the master counter tactic to good players would be to build bofors. OKWs T2 can't really counter them and since your enemy is clumping his troops somewhere behind the front together you also would have a surprise effect.
6 Sep 2018, 07:30 AM
#37
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

So a good player would sit behind the front line with his Puma together with Volks and/or a Raketen waiting for your AEC to reveal himself (even tho this should have already happen since Puma comes way later than AEC (even if you skip Luchs)? Then I guess the master counter tactic to good players would be to build bofors. OKWs T2 can't really counter them and since your enemy is clumping his troops somewhere behind the front together you also would have a surprise effect.


They mean there's no reason to show your opponent you have a Puma until a vehicle appears for it to shoot.
6 Sep 2018, 09:47 AM
#38
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1

I mean, the Raketenwerfer literally doesn't penetrate UKF medium tanks.

So I guess cross your fingers and hope you get matched against OKW, if anyone still plays OKW...


You are just straight up wrong. OKW is the 2nd most picked faction in GCS2 after soviets and have the highest win rate of all factions. OKW also had a ludicrous 70% win rate against Brits.



So a good player would sit behind the front line with his Puma together with Volks and/or a Raketen waiting for your AEC to reveal himself (even tho this should have already happen since Puma comes way later than AEC (even if you skip Luchs)? Then I guess the master counter tactic to good players would be to build bofors. OKWs T2 can't really counter them and since your enemy is clumping his troops somewhere behind the front together you also would have a surprise effect.


If you do this flank then the puma would likely be behind volks using its longer range. In that case volks can easily respond to it and if the AEC gets snared its dead. Bofors sucks ass and is a mp fuel sink and basically lets you get steam rolled even harder by LV spam. Now that the Puma cant one shot models with that target shot bs it has no AI and shouldn't be engaging anything unless you aec is visible.

There is a reason OKW has a 70+% win rate against Brits and its (I believe) in part that the brits are super weak to early LVs while OKW has some of the best in the game which you can use to punish brits immensely in the mid game

Brits have always been weak to LVs because of a lack of snares.

6 Sep 2018, 13:32 PM
#39
avatar of DarkDanie

Posts: 12

Recently started to play UKF in 1v1 and right now "just" level 10 at rank 330, so my commend might not be that valid. Anyway, by my experience UKF is sometimes rather strange, yet it is a viable faction. For me the key is to play quite preserving at the beginning and rush for a key building rather then cap terretory. IS are argueable the most durable mainline inf once within a garrison and volks or grens trying to rush your position will end up loosing. This gives you then the space to cap territory after their retreat. For inf spammers, there is always the vickers and UC with vickers upgrade. This allows you to trade effectively and keep the enemy suppressed. Also Brits have the fastest tech, even with upgrades. Making use of this enables the rush for a cromwell before your opponent even has set up the Schwerer or teched for battlephase 2 and gives you the opportunity to set up for a finishing blow (e.g. base rush).
For the AEC part: the AEC gives you the dynamic the UKF opening lacks. Even if you are getting rushed by a Puma, as long as your AT units are positioned well, you should be able to get the AEC out or even better defeat the puma. Furhtermore, going for the upgrades and using the abilities is also the key to victory, considering all the awesome toys UKF gets with their doctrines and the advantages of five man IS using double bren.
In general, I have the feeling that people do not get the general concept of this game. Axis as a lategame faction should win in lategame (for all those KT is op guys). In the same manner SU and USF are strong during early to mid, therefore their tasks is it to defeat the opponent during the early game. UKF however, have a weak early with a strong mid and some highlights for the late game. So my advice would be not to create this boring monotony of similar faction and actually start playing around the strength and weaknesses of the five factions as well as using tactics. :)

TL;DR
UKF needs to be played defensively first, needs to make use of cover and then use the fast tech to beat your opponent in the mid game.
6 Sep 2018, 14:04 PM
#40
avatar of CombatWombat

Posts: 98

I mean, the Raketenwerfer literally doesn't penetrate UKF medium tanks.


Rackwerfer has a far penetration of 180.

UKF mediums all have 160 front armour, which means the rack always penetrates.

If you are instead referring to the Comet Tank, which has a front armour rating of 290, that is considered a heavy tank as is also rubbish and should not be used.
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