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Mapinformation for GCS2

12 Jun 2018, 16:41 PM
#21
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1000 | Subs: 1



Indeed its intented to have not a nonbrainer free vp for left VP cover with a house+ mg.

Yes the church is now the important building for the middle vp. Both side have the same time to reach it now. See it like on faymonvill the middle vp building.

That seems reasonable. Thanks for the quick response.
12 Jun 2018, 17:24 PM
#22
avatar of WhiteFlash
Senior Mapmaker Badge
Benefactor 119

Posts: 1249 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2018, 14:10 PMluvnest
Not sure why we mess around with maps in the middle of the qualifaction series. Lots of them seem counter intuitive aswell.


This approach of running to fix maps before a tournament is a less than ideal approach. Your rolling the dice when you rush map development like this before a major tournament. I've warned people about this and I've dealt with this type of situation during the SNF COH1 days.

Reasons this might not be ok:

1. Not enough time to properly test maps
2. Not enough forum debate among experts to hammer out details
3. Not enough time for mappers to filter bias from debate and hone in on features that really need changing
4. A major tournament is about to happen so people will need to adjust on the fly to changes
5. Some of these changes are not minor.
6. Is this ok w the tournament organizer? or are we stepping hard on toes?

Reasons this might be ok:

1. Most, but not all, changes are smallish.
2. Depending on which mappers made the changes I'm confident they understood the implications of each change.
3. Tournament players are likely to adjust to the changes as needed, although not guaranteed and there is no way to measure this.

There is a reason Crossroads is statistically the most balanced 1v1 map.



There is a reason Alliance of Defiance was the most popular map of the new 2v2 maps.


The reason is thoroughness and you cant be thorough when your rushing changes and assuming they are ok after a handful of people test them. And which mapper made the changes?? I have confidence that the people who did test are competent. The only one i know of is hoolagin but I'm sure there are more. If they are all as competent as Hoolagin we are likely ok.

I dont agree with this approach taken, where are the threads for the new development on each map (could be wrong? show me?)? Which head mapper was running the show to ensure quality control? Which mappers made the changes in the first place? Were any of these changes debated so a spectrum of experts could weigh in and debate among themselves while the map author examined them (this is critical)? Did the mapper get to watch replays or spectate the experts games to analyze the game as it happens? (this is one of the best way to gather map data).

I know I wasn't told what the experts thought of the Crossroads changes after they were made. I have almost no data to go on. I talked to some people (thanks all who gave me data beforehand) before I made changes based on what I thought would benefit the map most and based on my experience. I assumed there would be threads made for all the maps being changed or people would tell me what they thought of the changes, didn't hear a thing. Is this the thread? All the maps together thread? How much time do we have if some giant bug pops up in a map?

Also, because this is in the GCS2 discussion thread I assume A_E is okay with all of this? I certainly hope so because organizing and running tournaments is as hard if not harder than anything else done as far as COH content goes and if we are stepping on his toes and not helping him something needs to change.

Did Relic ask to change all these maps before the tournament?

Bottom line if the mappers were on their game the maps should be more or less ok.

I don't mean to bother anyone here but there is a process to making and maintaining great ladder maps, and this isn't it.

I love you all <444>3 but that had to be said, and sorry if i sound like prick just trying to help and get the best possible result.
12 Jun 2018, 17:36 PM
#23
avatar of zarok47

Posts: 570


I think that would be too radical of a change. Also, I dont think its really necessary.


12 strats points to the normal 10 is not radical, the opposite is.

Muni closer to harrasble is also a no-brainer.
12 Jun 2018, 19:18 PM
#24
avatar of d0ggY
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 756 | Subs: 3



There is a reason Alliance of Defiance was the most popular map of the new 2v2 maps.





it's because me and Daddy G tested it with you and gave dat quality Feedback SeemsGood
12 Jun 2018, 19:40 PM
#25
avatar of MonolithicBacon

Posts: 952 | Subs: 3

This approach of running to fix maps before a tournament is a less than ideal approach. Your rolling the dice when you rush map development like this before a major tournament. I've warned people about this and I've dealt with this type of situation during the SNF COH1 days.

Reasons this might not be ok:

1. Not enough time to properly test maps
2. Not enough forum debate among experts to hammer out details
3. Not enough time for mappers to filter bias from debate and hone in on features that really need changing
4. A major tournament is about to happen so people will need to adjust on the fly to changes
5. Some of these changes are not minor.
6. Is this ok w the tournament organizer? or are we stepping hard on toes?


Hey Whiteflash.

We completely understand your concerns regarding the changes on display here, especially so close to GCS2. However, having worked closely with A_E, Sturmpanther, Capiqua, Tric and a host of high-rank players, I wanted to reassure you that we have every faith in the changes that have been made, and would not have made any of them rashly.

We appreciate that there is an ideal process for making map fixes, which we successfully used in the previous map patch, but with time against us, and only a few small-scale quality of life changes on the list, this seemed like an opportunity we couldn't pass up.

I should also make it clear that no changes were made without complete consent and unanimous support from the entire team, including A_E, who had the final word as to whether a change would be acceptable in GCS2. You yourself were included in the changes to Crossroads, as you are one of the few active mappers to have an asset in automatch and didn't wish to take that honour away from you.

Needless to say, if bugs do arise (which they always do), we can easily make fixes and changes, as the pool of maps in question is so small, and should the need arise, changes can be reverted completely.

Rest-assured, this was a Relic commissioned venture, and was carried out with more secrecy than before to reduce unwanted exposure after recent, unfortunate leaks. Nevertheless, I have complete faith in the team that identified, managed and tested these changes.

******

On the topic of KFS, we should make it clear that this map featured the only case of dramatic changes - these changes were of my own design, with support, discussion, advice and guidance from Sturmpanther, and testing from the other members of the group. If you have particular problems with this redesign, please direct them to me to allow me to collate useful feedback. It is very daunting to change a map that has been present since the release of the game, but we are confident that it will reduce the imbalances of the map without damaging its soul - we urge you to give it a try!
A_E
12 Jun 2018, 19:50 PM
#26
avatar of A_E
Lead Caster Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2381 | Subs: 6

Important Player Vote on Timing in PMs



Players have the option to vote on when the maps will hit both automatch and the tournaments.

A: Either in the middle of qualifying meaning the last two qualifying tournaments will benefit from the changes, but players have to adapt.

B: Or exactly after, meaning only the live tournament will be on the new iterations.

Please head to your PM to vote.
A_E
14 Jun 2018, 08:35 AM
#27
avatar of A_E
Lead Caster Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2381 | Subs: 6

Player vote concluded:

27 GCS2 players voted to release the maps changes between qualification tournaments 2 and 3.

6 GCS2 players voted to release the map changes after qualification has concluded.

So the window for implementation is now the week beginning the 2nd of June and ending the 6th. Giving a full week to acclimitise to the changes in Live before Qualification Tournament 3.
14 Jun 2018, 21:53 PM
#28
avatar of WhiteFlash
Senior Mapmaker Badge
Benefactor 119

Posts: 1249 | Subs: 1

Thanks for the clarification Mono its appreciated.

Crossroads bug fixed, https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=501836252

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2018, 19:18 PMd0ggY



it's because me and Daddy G tested it with you and gave dat quality Feedback SeemsGood

<444>3 ;)
22 Jun 2018, 19:05 PM
#29
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3985 | Subs: 3

Can we PLEASE fix the south VP/muni hedge on Kholodney? Models are able to shoot at other targets through the hedge even with no sight.
22 Jun 2018, 19:36 PM
#30
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5359 | Subs: 28

Can we PLEASE fix the south VP/muni hedge on Kholodney? Models are able to shoot at other targets through the hedge even with no sight.


Mono tried but he wasn't able to do it :(
And it does not happend often tho, lucky.
13 Jul 2018, 01:47 AM
#31
avatar of Cyanara

Posts: 769 | Subs: 1



As I wrote: Left side is STILL 6 sec faster to the middle vp. So your "seems like" is wrong here.
And you have 6! cover positions for the left player for a mg for the middle vp :P


Wow. I've always wondered why this map favoured the left player so much (from a defensive standpoint) and I never even considered that factor. My kingdom for symmetry passes! But nice to see even these changes :)
13 Jul 2018, 18:42 PM
#32
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1404 | Subs: 2



Mono tried but he wasn't able to do it :(
And it does not happend often tho, lucky.


Are these the hedgerows in question?


These hedges are on a small hill. In the example below, the MG will not shoot at the INF on the other side of the hedges unless something gives them sight first. The MG initially uses the FOW grid to see objects. Once the FOW test is passed (something somewhere sees the units), the game will switch to TRUESIGHT and the MG will try to look thru the sight block cubes that surround all objects. The truesight calc may also incorporate a cube from the MG, to see if the MG cube can see the INF cube. If so, the hedge cube does not have to be too far off the ground before the MG can see right under it and start shooting.



So the hill height needs to be reduced or the hedges need to be manually lowered. I just found this in a map I am making and said "where did I just read this...."

This is probably not the issue since Mono posted about it ages ago. Just throwing it out there in case it helps get someone thinking.
13 Jul 2018, 19:01 PM
#33
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1404 | Subs: 2

I figured we needed a better visual:

1. Place units on side of hedge. Then make them the ENEMY.


2. Turn on the Fog Of War. Unit is hidden from MG. MG is not shooting. The unit FAILS the FOW terrain grid test (the FOW shadow drawn on the ground).


3. Bring a unit in to sight for the MG. The enemy now passes the FOW test. The enemy also passes the CUBE test since the hedges are high off the ground. The MG starts firing. You can see the MG firing into the dirt under the hedges. The enemy unit is pinned.
13 Jul 2018, 21:37 PM
#34
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5359 | Subs: 28

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jul 2018, 19:01 PMRosbone
I figured we needed a better visual:

1. Place units on side of hedge. Then make them the ENEMY.


2. Turn on the Fog Of War. Unit is hidden from MG. MG is not shooting. The unit FAILS the FOW terrain grid test (the FOW shadow drawn on the ground).


3. Bring a unit in to sight for the MG. The enemy now passes the FOW test. The enemy also passes the CUBE test since the hedges are high off the ground. The MG starts firing. You can see the MG firing into the dirt under the hedges. The enemy unit is pinned.


Yes i know. It works very well with sniper as well. But only on the 1 single spot.
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