Login

russian armor

Pgrens seem like they have been flipped on their head

12 Jun 2018, 16:18 PM
#81
avatar of roll0

Posts: 64

Permanently Banned


Ha I'd like to see the numbers for that, the Panzer II has much higher burst damage up close and the T-70 is fenomenal at wiping retreating squads. They're also immune to small arms fire. You conveniently forgot to mention the even cheaper clown car that can be even more effective at harrassing enemy positions. M20 is overpriced as most people would agree on. But we digress.


lol

Try and counter the 222 with small arms and let me know how you get on.

t-70 only recieves better DPS at vet 3, but 222 is better stock until then.
12 Jun 2018, 16:39 PM
#82
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1

It was better than before. Doesn't make it better than Luchs or T70.

You're clinically retarded, obviously.

Slightly better than before = better than vehicles costing more than double the amount.

Sure.
12 Jun 2018, 17:07 PM
#83
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2018, 09:15 AMStark


On the other hand you have unit like Obers - elite infantry squad with great AI performance, with a lot of abilities, potent to fight with ally call in units.

In current meta there is no much room for pgrens this days and that's a shame

And offers are underwhelming because volks get obers. Don't get me wrong overs are nice but they come out a bit late when allied squads can have double armed vetted units on the fieldq. You are usually better off getting the incredibly cost effecient volks.
13 Jun 2018, 02:50 AM
#84
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2018, 11:33 AMroll0


No they don't....

They are the same pop as commandos because they are both elite infantry. Just because commandos or pgrens melt under focused LMG fire that doesn't mean they are UP or deserving of a buff, they are flanking units.

Conscripts or tommies cant exactly throw a bundle nade and dish out explosive DPS clearing team weapons or wiping retreating squads even on the move.



So? Just because the meta is mindless a move LMG grens and 222 that doesn't mean Pgrens are UP. When the map allows they are worth their weight in gold, but any buffs to this unit will make them OP like the current 222 that people were crying about for weeks when it was in a decent position before.

Ostheer do not need any more early-mid game buffs


pzgrenadier doesn't have the performance of an elite infantry. They are maybe about the performance of a dual bar rifleman.

Yes, the dual bar rifleman is more expensive, but using the pzgren put the wehr at a population disadvantage.

and even if I agree the wehr is the strongest faction, tied with the soviet, it is despite the poor performance of the pzgren.

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2018, 09:15 AMStark


On the other hand you have unit like Obers - elite infantry squad with great AI performance, with a lot of abilities, potent to fight with ally call in units.

In current meta there is no much room for pgrens this days and that's a shame


the ober isn't that great either. They have the same problem as the pzgren just less severe.

I think the 4 men axis elite need a straight up hp buff. There's really a limit on how far target size can go on a 4 men squad.

13 Jun 2018, 06:48 AM
#85
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2018, 15:40 PMroll0


Bofors countering ost light vehicle play? lol

If you honestly think the 222 is not OP for 200mp 30f your axis tinted glasses are rather thick indeed. You know it now does more reliable DPS than a 60f luch or 70f t-70?

Bren carrier is 260mp and m20 is 280mp for reference. 222 is OP


bofors counter all light verhicle...with a AT gun even counter armys till mid game easily.

once you drive to fast with the 222 in the fow...you will lose it in 2sec because of bofors.
and bofors cost nearly the same
13 Jun 2018, 07:24 AM
#86
avatar of Stark

Posts: 626 | Subs: 1

Guys, 222 isn't the topic of this thread - pgrens are.

222 issue (if it's even exists) doesn't change the problem of panzergranadiers.

There is a reason no1 is using it. Proposals of reducing price, adding armor upgrade, giving posiblity to lay teller mine (maybe riegel or shu mine would be more unique?) or adding a new vet1 ability are really interesting and it would bring fresh breath to this unit, making it more desirable later game.

Some of those changes are at least worth testing in a balance mode
13 Jun 2018, 07:26 AM
#87
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jun 2018, 07:24 AMStark
Guys, 222 isn't the topic of this thread - pgrens are.

222 issue (if it's even exists) doesn't change the problem of panzergranadiers.

There is a reason no1 is using it. Proposals of reducing price, adding armor upgrade, giving posiblity to lay teller mine (maybe riegel or shu mine would be more unique?) or adding a new vet1 ability are really interesting and it would bring fresh breath to this unit, making it more desirable later game.

Some of those changes are at least worth testing in a balance mode


you wont see it...because someone will post a video from 2014 where pgrens onehit allie armor and schredd sov infantery. I bet.
13 Jun 2018, 17:29 PM
#88
avatar of roll0

Posts: 64

Permanently Banned


pzgrenadier doesn't have the performance of an elite infantry. They are maybe about the performance of a dual bar rifleman.


Compared to what elite infantry? I would rank Pgrens as better than Shocks or Commandos who are also 9pop cap. So you would have to decrease their pop as well surely with any change to pgren.

The only disconnect here IMO is with elite LMG units (LMG obers, LMG paras, pre-nerf guards) that require minimal micro but a-moving into engagements against infantry or MG's and winning.
13 Jun 2018, 20:00 PM
#89
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jun 2018, 17:29 PMroll0


Compared to what elite infantry? I would rank Pgrens as better than Shocks or Commandos who are also 9pop cap. So you would have to decrease their pop as well surely with any change to pgren.

The only disconnect here IMO is with elite LMG units (LMG obers, LMG paras, pre-nerf guards) that require minimal micro but a-moving into engagements against infantry or MG's and winning.


You realize shocks can afford to charge pgrens and win? You can do a test yourself. The only way to win is for the pgrens to throw a nade in the path. So how are pgrens better exactly? Commandos are more versatile than pgrens who don't have smoke or camo. And you think that 5man sections are worse than pgrens? Under the majority of circumstances the 5man sections are better. They are about the same when there are no weapon upgrades (when both have cover), but 5man with ungrades are significantly better. Pgrens only beat 5man is if the section doesn't have cover and at mid or short range. Upgraded section can only lose if you can ambush then or engage them at point blank somehow. Saying that the 222 is op because it can kill on retreat better than a luchs, t70, etc. is pure nit-picking and ignoring that it's still inferior to those light vehicles in every other way shows what kind of allied fanboy you really are.
13 Jun 2018, 20:26 PM
#90
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Shocks can afford to charge because if they don't charge they do 0 damage. That's by design. They have 1 effective role and that's getting into knife range and doing well there. God forbid pgrens who can engage out to mid range lose to a squad designed to win at close range and LITERALLY nothing else full stop. Christ. You want your cake and to eat and to make sure nobody else has any cake and have to watch as you smear it across your maw don't you?
13 Jun 2018, 22:36 PM
#91
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

...That's by design. They have 1 effective role and that's getting into knife range and doing well there...

Actually Shock's have little reason to move closer than range 10 since their DPS is the highest at that range.
13 Jun 2018, 22:55 PM
#92
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jun 2018, 22:36 PMVipper

Actually Shock's have little reason to move closer than range 10 since their DPS is the highest at that range.

Hyperbole of course. My point is they cannot function as defenders sitting behind cover dealing damage at range, while obviously not excelling at it it is an option for pgrens should they need to be called into that role
14 Jun 2018, 00:25 AM
#93
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jun 2018, 17:29 PMroll0


Compared to what elite infantry? I would rank Pgrens as better than Shocks or Commandos who are also 9pop cap. So you would have to decrease their pop as well surely with any change to pgren.

The only disconnect here IMO is with elite LMG units (LMG obers, LMG paras, pre-nerf guards) that require minimal micro but a-moving into engagements against infantry or MG's and winning.


the commandos is an amazingly unit with their cloaking ability. It provide the commandos ~3 seconds of cloak in between cover and it is entirely possible to sneak up to enemy and nade them.

the shock is one of the most durable unit in the game, with their armor, squad size, and smoke.

both of them are close range specialist with tools to get up close.

the panzer's main strength is really just its mid-long range dps, which isn't that amazing.
14 Jun 2018, 02:27 AM
#94
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
Shocks can afford to charge because if they don't charge they do 0 damage. That's by design. They have 1 effective role and that's getting into knife range and doing well there. God forbid pgrens who can engage out to mid range lose to a squad designed to win at close range and LITERALLY nothing else full stop. Christ. You want your cake and to eat and to make sure nobody else has any cake and have to watch as you smear it across your maw don't you?


Never implied that shocks were op. Just saying that shocks are better than pgrens, and they should be. I had to explain to Rollo, who obviously should spent some more time playing, that pgrens are not better than shocks
14 Jun 2018, 09:09 AM
#95
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1



Never implied that shocks were op. Just saying that shocks are better than pgrens, and they should be. I had to explain to Rollo, who obviously should spent some more time playing, that pgrens are not better than shocks


He tries to explain you that PGrens have other applications. You can't use shocks on the defense from cover, you need to charge with them. ALWAYS. It is only niche they cover, of course they are better than PGrens in that particular function.

But this doesn't translate into "shocks are better than pgrens". If unit X can 1v1 unit Y doesn't makes statement "X is better than Y" true. That's debatable.

Just because PGrens can be also used defensively I'd rate them higher than Shocks too despite the fact that Shocks can 1v1 them. I'm with roll0 on that.
15 Jun 2018, 02:05 AM
#96
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930



He tries to explain you that PGrens have other applications. You can't use shocks on the defense from cover, you need to charge with them. ALWAYS. It is only niche they cover, of course they are better than PGrens in that particular function.

But this doesn't translate into "shocks are better than pgrens". If unit X can 1v1 unit Y doesn't makes statement "X is better than Y" true. That's debatable.

Just because PGrens can be also used defensively I'd rate them higher than Shocks too despite the fact that Shocks can 1v1 them. I'm with roll0 on that.


the pgren isn't that great at their "other application". lmg42/g43 grenadier are straight up better at long-mid range combat. The American rifle with bar will beat the pzgren at mid-long range.

having pzgren utilize their mediocre mid-long dps isn't really a great use of those 9 pop.
15 Jun 2018, 02:50 AM
#97
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned


He tries to explain you that PGrens have other applications. You can't use shocks on the defense from cover, you need to charge with them. ALWAYS. It is only niche they cover, of course they are better than PGrens in that particular function.

But this doesn't translate into "shocks are better than pgrens". If unit X can 1v1 unit Y doesn't makes statement "X is better than Y" true. That's debatable.

Just because PGrens can be also used defensively I'd rate them higher than Shocks too despite the fact that Shocks can 1v1 them. I'm with roll0 on that.


Well, shocks have smoke nades so you can force the enemy to get close or get close on the enemy. Or you can defend with shocks by placing them behind a sight blocker and ambushing a squad.

+1 to Firespark's comment. It's inevitable that you need to do some fighting at mid-long range with pgrens where they will lose to 7pop upgraded riflemen. But shocks have smoke nades which means for a lousy 15 munis you can always swing the engagement in your favor.
15 Jun 2018, 03:09 AM
#98
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

That's a problem with rifles not with pgrens. Ost doesn't just fight rifles and buffing them because of that is exactly why volks have to have STGs and exactly why cons are mostly useless. It's all a chain of effects and "great at all ranges and also can double arm to ensure they can spank elite infantry" design is at the heart. Pgrens are great against the Soviet. It's WFA that trips them up. They are designed to be non doc elite infantry. Combined with ambush/sprint they are spooky shit even for WFA. they are not designed to just out and win everything. I fail to see how "shocks can just wait around a sight blocker and eat things" is acceptable but doing the same with pgrens is not..
15 Jun 2018, 06:45 AM
#99
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6


+1 to Firespark's comment. It's inevitable that you need to do some fighting at mid-long range with pgrens where they will lose to 7pop upgraded riflemen.


Again this is why I would propose a new vet1 ability 'single shot fire mode' that temporarily improves their mid-long range dps at the cost of short range dps. This would fix their greatest weakness but leaves them vulnerable to being rushed.
15 Jun 2018, 13:26 PM
#100
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
I fail to see how "shocks can just wait around a sight blocker and eat things" is acceptable but doing the same with pgrens is not..


I'm simply saying that shocks and pgrens serve the same functions. I'm saying that I don't see how pgrens are more flexible. Shocks need to get close. Pgrens still need to be at least midrange. Even cons will beat pgrens at max range. However shocks can always afford to charge due to having cheap smoke and simply being a beefier, armored squad.
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

339 users are online: 339 guests
16 posts in the last 24h
44 posts in the last week
100 posts in the last month
Registered members: 44647
Welcome our newest member, Vassarh9
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM