I will admit, I am currently a primarily an OKW player and but I often stick to one faction for a few at a time and switch it up. A problem has occurred to me in the past few games against Soviets:
Playing against penals as OKW is a nightmare, and I feel like they are overpowered for their ease of access and cost. Penals obliterate Sturmpioneers, Volks, unupgraded Obers, and Fusiliers and appear to be the strongest anti-infantry unit. They quickly wipe out team weapons with their high accuracy/ROF, and are strong against indirect fire with 6-man squads and high HP- very difficult to wipe. You think a counter to this unit would be armour, since obers, rangers, commandos, and other elite infantry have no access to AT weapons. However, once again the penals can get the PTRS package, and still get the sticky satchel. This makes the PB a great AT unit with satchel spam on damaged vehicles. Even with the upgrade, they are still way too effective against infantry. They also have the added utility of being able to easily eliminate OKW HQ buildings and other fortifications with a smoke grenade and a few satchels. I am excited to see my opponents using other units, because I don't know how to counter penals. They win every engagement, are early as soon as the game begins (with T1) and progress very well until the late game. Something needs to be done about this unit. Reminds me of the old volk Shreck blob days, except with better anti-infantry.
Penals are currently unbalanced
16 Feb 2018, 16:44 PM
#1
Posts: 6
16 Feb 2018, 17:46 PM
#2
1 
Posts: 2885
Try using the AA halftrack. It is one of the best counters now as it can supress multiple squads with at rifles before they can even fire. Closing to it for a satchel is pretty much impossible for the same reason. And if you place it on retreat, you can easily wipe a squad.
Btw, penals are greatly overshadowed by guards, snipers and maxims this patch.
Btw, penals are greatly overshadowed by guards, snipers and maxims this patch.
16 Feb 2018, 20:08 PM
#3
Posts: 808
Try using the AA halftrack. It is one of the best counters now as it can supress multiple squads with at rifles before they can even fire. Closing to it for a satchel is pretty much impossible for the same reason. And if you place it on retreat, you can easily wipe a squad.
Btw, penals are greatly overshadowed by guards, snipers and maxims this patch.
AA track vs ptrs penals? lol no way and ther other problems like AT gun and LVs. Penals shouldn't have never gotten PTRS's, they should have been a specialised AI squad not both
16 Feb 2018, 20:17 PM
#4
Posts: 17884 | Subs: 8
AA track vs ptrs penals? lol no way and ther other problems like AT gun and LVs. Penals shouldn't have never gotten PTRS's, they should have been a specialised AI squad not both
How about you actually use it....
AA HT makes a short work of guards when they activate their vet1 ability.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
17 Feb 2018, 00:50 AM
#5
9 
Posts: 1194 | Subs: 29
If you force the penals to get ptrs your stg volks should have the edge on them.
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17 Feb 2018, 11:01 AM
#6
Posts: 5279
The problem with penals is the same thing that was wrong with launch obers- you have a VERY potent squad that only costs manpower but requires the enemy to invest manpower, muntions, better positioning and have a vet advantage in order to be competative against them and even then its a toss up.
Id like to see penals turned into an unremarkable but flexible squad that requires munitions to be effective:
Start em as a 260mp squad (because of high accuracy and FANTASTIC vet) that is armed with mosins and oorah (not unlike cons, but a clearly less support oriented and better in combat) maybe a 3rs weapon slot to incentivise not upgrading them all
They can then specialize to:
Urban combat- satchels and ppshs
Strelky- svts and a standard grenade
Or anti vehicle- ptrs and AT satchel
All upgrades would fill all weapon slots and remove oorah.
Id like to see penals turned into an unremarkable but flexible squad that requires munitions to be effective:
Start em as a 260mp squad (because of high accuracy and FANTASTIC vet) that is armed with mosins and oorah (not unlike cons, but a clearly less support oriented and better in combat) maybe a 3rs weapon slot to incentivise not upgrading them all
They can then specialize to:
Urban combat- satchels and ppshs
Strelky- svts and a standard grenade
Or anti vehicle- ptrs and AT satchel
All upgrades would fill all weapon slots and remove oorah.
#stalinwept
17 Feb 2018, 11:30 AM
#7
Posts: 34
The problem with penals is the same thing that was wrong with launch obers- you have a VERY potent squad that only costs manpower but requires the enemy to invest manpower, muntions, better positioning and have a vet advantage in order to be competative against them and even then its a toss up.
Id like to see penals turned into an unremarkable but flexible squad that requires munitions to be effective:
Start em as a 260mp squad (because of high accuracy and FANTASTIC vet) that is armed with mosins and oorah (not unlike cons, but a clearly less support oriented and better in combat) maybe a 3rs weapon slot to incentivise not upgrading them all
They can then specialize to:
Urban combat- satchels and ppshs
Strelky- svts and a standard grenade
Or anti vehicle- ptrs and AT satchel
All upgrades would fill all weapon slots and remove oorah.
That's actually a really good idea, fits their elite inf role very good.
17 Feb 2018, 12:33 PM
#8
Posts: 518
That's actually a really good idea, fits their elite inf role very good.
I don't know ... a units which costs only 10 MP more than Volks but has 6 Squad members , a 3rd weapon slot, can sprint and can be upgraded with Closecombat/AntiBuilding,Longerange rifles/grenades or AT/AT and that without doctrine would be too strong in my opinion.
But I still like the idea ... although it should get changed a bit
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
Playing with randoms
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you
I don't play this version of EZ mode very often because it's so boringly simple. But it is funny to see the Axis circle jerk with people complaining that the one faction with every crutch in the book is some how underpowered lol.
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
u deserve to lose if u don't have an Ele when there's an ISU.
Just stay out of topics u have no knowledge of, Latch.
Ranked, I only play USF. Wouldn't be caught dead playing Nazis with some sort of record being taken
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you, and wouldn't be surprised to be hit again, but I'm fed up with this bullshit and honestly, the sole fact that I'm not permad is what keeps me here having discussions about the game I like and yes, I do question myself why I still go back here to this free range insane asylum so often.
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you
17 Feb 2018, 13:04 PM
#9
Posts: 5279
I don't know ... a units which costs only 10 MP more than Volks but has 6 Squad members , a 3rd weapon slot, can sprint and can be upgraded with Closecombat/AntiBuilding,Longerange rifles/grenades or AT/AT and that without doctrine would be too strong in my opinion.
But I still like the idea ... although it should get changed a bit
I chose 260 because they would more or less function like cons when not specialised, orrah and mosins but a bit more accurate with better vet but ALSO behind a small 10 fuel and 125mp building (small, but should be accounted for)
Included in volks price is grenades that they start with as well as a faust that they get shortly after.
I chose not to go with 280mp as we have the other 2 allied factions rocking 280mp mainlines and it would bring too much expectation for the price point imo.
270 like the old penals could work however if you are concerned about volks, but without upgrades they are would very much be just glorified conscripts (without AT nades, merge or molitov access) i would even humor scrapping orrah on them all together if its deemed necessary for balance and preserve the uniqueness of conscripts
But as always my idea isnt by anymeans set in stone, just a suggestion for the sake of discussion. Thoughts on it?
#stalinwept
18 Feb 2018, 02:12 AM
#11
Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1
snip
Yeah setting them at 280 plus the building would make them very expensive while not being as good as Rifleman or IS.
Also maybe moving Svts to close combat and DPs to Strekly could be considered. (personally, I dislike ppshs)
bg /l
18 Feb 2018, 04:14 AM
#12
Posts: 365
The problem with penals is the same thing that was wrong with launch obers-
I know you are not comparing PTRS rifles to panzerschreks because they are not even close to similar. There is a massive reason you didn't see every Sov player send 6 guard squads everywhere they went. Launch obers were a swiss army knife and currently i would trade the old flame penals for what we have now in a heartbeat. They were dynamic and fun while being an excellent counter to blobs. they rewarded intelligent play and required OKW blobs to think before they acted if they wanted to win.
18 Feb 2018, 05:52 AM
#13
Posts: 2260 | Subs: 1
Why didn't you complain during the 5-month Penal balance Preview?
18 Feb 2018, 12:34 PM
#14
Posts: 808
Why didn't you complain during the 5-month Penal balance Preview?
lol so many people complained about penals, mods didn't listen and forced the changes in
18 Feb 2018, 14:21 PM
#15
Posts: 5279
I know you are not comparing PTRS rifles to panzerschreks because they are not even close to similar. There is a massive reason you didn't see every Sov player send 6 guard squads everywhere they went. Launch obers were a swiss army knife and currently i would trade the old flame penals for what we have now in a heartbeat. They were dynamic and fun while being an excellent counter to blobs. they rewarded intelligent play and required OKW blobs to think before they acted if they wanted to win.
My comparison was that both are top dog AI with only a manpower cost meaning munitions can be used to maintain critcal mass instead of being part of getting there.
When balancing i feel that relic neglects the potential of munitions as a factor.
Old shreks blobs could have been mitigated by keeping volks awful at AI but requiring munitions on obers for the lmg and no other changes, instead we had nerfed shreks, buffed volks, nerfed ober performance, increased cost AND a HUUUGE munitions cost on obers. The changes made volks more self sufficient and obers nonexistent strengthening volks blobs instead of weaking them.
The idea with a munitions cost on penals is two fold: it reduces and delays the impact of penals by having them require more than the easiest resource to get AND diversifies the soviet munitions sink. Atm since demo charges were removed from the game all the soviet spends resources on is LMGs for guards, ptrs for penals as needed and mines (abilities too as needed i spose) and all those munitions sinks are defense against armour which SHOULD be the awnser to penals. Mp for AI and MU for AT is really as ideal as it gets for the soviet and id like for that to get broken up
#stalinwept
18 Feb 2018, 14:33 PM
#16
Posts: 5279
Yeah setting them at 280 plus the building would make them very expensive while not being as good as Rifleman or IS.
Also maybe moving Svts to close combat and DPs to Strekly could be considered. (personally, I dislike ppshs)
Agreed
The reason i wanted PPSHs on the satchel is so there is more choice, SVT and satchel really leaves no reason for the ppsh option and i think satchels (especially being better and more cost effecient option than demo charges) on the most versatile weapon option would defeat part of the choice.
Id love for more DP-28s but i would fear DPs and mosins and grenades would make guards feel less unique or simply not be an attractive option.
I would LOVE for the flamethrower to make a return (ppsh, flamethrower and satchel) but i know 6 man flamer isnt really the most balnced choice, even if it lacks a ranged support weapon but i really enjoyed it from the old penal revamp preview. A focused and exploitable strength/weakness imo IS good for balance
#stalinwept
18 Feb 2018, 18:14 PM
#17
Posts: 518
Agreed
The reason i wanted PPSHs on the satchel is so there is more choice, SVT and satchel really leaves no reason for the ppsh option and i think satchels (especially being better and more cost effecient option than demo charges) on the most versatile weapon option would defeat part of the choice.
Id love for more DP-28s but i would fear DPs and mosins and grenades would make guards feel less unique or simply not be an attractive option.
I would LOVE for the flamethrower to make a return (ppsh, flamethrower and satchel) but i know 6 man flamer isnt really the most balnced choice, even if it lacks a ranged support weapon but i really enjoyed it from the old penal revamp preview. A focused and exploitable strength/weakness imo IS good for balance
Oh god ... everything except flamethrower on penal . I still get nightmares from an penal blob equipped with flamethrowers which just roast everything in its range and is basically unstoppable
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
Playing with randoms
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you
I don't play this version of EZ mode very often because it's so boringly simple. But it is funny to see the Axis circle jerk with people complaining that the one faction with every crutch in the book is some how underpowered lol.
The idea that the Jackson needed ANY nerfing is so laughable. It only serves ONE task, how dare it be good at that. If it were a good against infantry like the Panther, King Tiger, Panzer IV, Jagtiger, Elefant, I could see how it might be a problem and need a nerf but it's not
Haha the votes on this alone show the euro synphatheizers feel they just deserve to win. Anytime an okw nerf is brought up. Brain dead faction that skilless people can play and i refuse to play because of it.
u deserve to lose if u don't have an Ele when there's an ISU.
Just stay out of topics u have no knowledge of, Latch.
Ranked, I only play USF. Wouldn't be caught dead playing Nazis with some sort of record being taken
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you, and wouldn't be surprised to be hit again, but I'm fed up with this bullshit and honestly, the sole fact that I'm not permad is what keeps me here having discussions about the game I like and yes, I do question myself why I still go back here to this free range insane asylum so often.
I've talked with mods enough times, I know when I'm going overboard, I usually limit myself, but there is only so much tolerance I have for entitled, ignorant fucks like you
18 Feb 2018, 20:57 PM
#18
Posts: 558 | Subs: 1
Oh god ... everything except flamethrower on penal . I still get nightmares from an penal blob equipped with flamethrowers which just roast everything in its range and is basically unstoppable
i liked my penal blobs especially when flamers did crit damage what resulted in insta kills, even on full hp models
18 Feb 2018, 23:57 PM
#19
Posts: 5279
Oh god ... everything except flamethrower on penal . I still get nightmares from an penal blob equipped with flamethrowers which just roast everything in its range and is basically unstoppable
I miss the ole hand nukes that took out half the squad too so maybe its just nostalgia
#stalinwept
19 Feb 2018, 00:48 AM
#20
Posts: 485 | Subs: 1
If you force the penals to get ptrs your stg volks should have the edge on them.
+1
Could have closed the thread on tightrope answer because there doesn't need more talk.
PTRS penals have shit anti infantry capacity, that's all it need for the stg44 upgraded ubermenschen from okw to rekt them.
If you can't do that then it's basically that you suck but it's not game balance fault.
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