Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1
Double bar riflemen are only weaker then Pg in heavy cover and mid distance. They will beat them easily at far range.
In addition they probably have more vet by the time they run to Pgs.
In addition Pg have a higher cost and cost more.
Posts: 1124
Horseshit. Watch one of Thanatos or Theodosius's (sp?) replays. See them rack up 30-40 kills with and Ostwind or 50+ with a Panzerwerfer.
Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17
Posts: 1124
@OP
1. Against which faction, in which modes, using which doctrines?
2. Could you kindly provide WBP replays where:
- You have issues facing double-bar Riflemen
- You unfairly dominate the enemy using double-bar Riflemen
On behalf of the balance team, we not going to bother processing information that is obviously stale / doesn't take the changes of WBP into account.
Posts: 1063
The thing is USF the riflemen simply need to scale into the late game given Jacksons and Shermans are too fragile to fight tanks 1v1.
BARs being double equipped are there to fight elite Axis infantry. I always play USF without mortar as I hate using broken units. A solution to this double BAR madness would be give a single upgrade ala CoH1 style and tweak vet accuracy bonus instead so mid game double BAR riflemen don't roflstomp all infantry. That way Rifles can still scale into late while giving chance for Axis to hold until elites come out.
If you guys still want to nerf vet 3 riflemen then give me non-doctrine Rangers instead for late game.
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
On behalf of the balance team, we not going to bother processing information that is obviously stale / doesn't take the changes of WBP into account.
You could put more emphasis on reducing the long range DPS on some of the AR to differentiate them from LMGs. At first this should apply to BAR. Once some QoL changes are done to OKW, squad formation and unit call in, i could see the same treatment apply to IR STG and maybe FG42.
Reduce DPS from range 25-35 from (6.03/5.17/4.37) to something around (5/4/3)
Gren + LMG42 at (25-35): 17.99/17.03/15.98
Rifle + 2xBar at (25-35): 19.08/16.25/13.75
New Rifle 2xBar at (25-35): 17.02/13.91/11.01
If LMGs are limited to 1 from rack pick, i wouldn't mind BAR + 1919 as this requires teching and shouldn't be as effective with the new weapon profile (you are mixing a weapon which is better at close range and on the move vs something which needs to be static and at range).
Rifle + 1x1919: 18.04/16.89/15.84
Rifle + duo weapon: 20.07/18.92/17.17
Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
What does that statement really indicate, though? The only thing PGs beat at far range are engineer and full-on SMG units.
Posts: 2742
Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1
That statement indicates, tha the fact that Pg can be beat double bar riflemen at specific circumstance is not an indication that double bar riflemen are weaker than Pgs, a claim that I Responded to.
USF infantry are all about their weapon racks.
It's why REs can be so viable with zooks or bars: their slot_items are what carry the unit, not the unit itself.
Rifles get an at snare with vet, which pretty much mitigates the cost of any investment into weapon racks.
I am more of the opinion that riflemen need to be more effective without weapon upgrades, and less effective with them, though not by much. USF isn't usually laying mines or getting flamethrowers and aren't spending munitions on grenades anymore so it's not like buying weapon racks items costs much strategic capability.
Posts: 3600 | Subs: 1
Hear hear man, of all USF units, only Rifles, Paras, Rangers, Pershing and Callies (4 of them are super-expensive call-ins) are worth keeping till late game. Anything else is only good for shock factor or trading.
Posts: 2742
It's definitely a thing to consider (though I personally doubt Rifles need to be a lot better right now considering they're obviously the immediately-available versatile mainline infantry unit that can generally expect to win most engagements against any other ones without upgrades). The power spike from equipping BARs is very distinct.
Posts: 1124
I would've thought so too until running tests on infantry matchups. Volks actually beat rifles at long and mid range quite reliably if both are vet 0.
Volks are surprisingly equal matchups to rifles so long as they don't have weapons or vet. As long as the volks don't get caught out of cover they are quite formidable.
I haven't tested unupgraded rifles and volks with max vet though.
The fact that volks can lay sandbags is huge. But most importantly is the disparity in infantry healing. Ambulance keeps the entire USF infantry force in top shape. OKW needs to go medic truck and invest in medics, which, all costs aside, is time consuming.
Hurt squads lose engagements like nobodies business.
Posts: 493
And then there is the "skilled" blobbing, where there are 4-6 riflemen but split, 3/3 or 2/4.
Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
I would've thought so too until running tests on infantry matchups. Volks actually beat rifles at long and mid range quite reliably if both are vet 0.
...
Posts: 1124
Is it always a blobbing when somebody has more units than you?
Posts: 2742
Volks with out ST44 beat riflemen at mid quite reliably?
If you are talking about VG with ST44 it is another story and imo the ST44 upgrade was bad design the same way the Penal SVT is bad design.
Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
They do, so long as there is cover. Mind you, there's a steep switch between 'mid' and 'close' range, between 20 and 15 meters where suddenly volks lose hard/rifles perform much better.
Posts: 1124
Posts: 239
Something needs to be done to control/deter USF blobbing. To make it more punishable or to make it not as rewarding. To make strategic play more viable. In this case, having the same weapon that is effective yes, not as effective on the move but as effective while static is a first step in my opinion.
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Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1
They do, so long as there is cover. Mind you, there's a steep switch between 'mid' and 'close' range, between 20 and 15 meters where suddenly volks lose hard/rifles perform much better.
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