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Why do top-players play OKW this way (1on1 question)

28 Jan 2017, 16:07 PM
#1
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

So I watched some replays and noticed that good COH2 players play OKW very differently to me and wondered why. Frankly the way they play makes little sense to me.

Usual build order that I observed: Kübel(1-2x), Volksgrenadiers (2-3x), AT-Gun -> Tech 1, Upgrade as retreat point and healing upgrade, ISG (1-2x)-> Tech 3, Panther

My usual build order depending on how opponent plays: Volksgrenadier, Kübel, Volksgrenadier, Volksgrenadier -> Tech2, MG 34(2x) Luchs, AT-Gun, Stuka(situational) -> Call-In Commandpanther or Call-in Ostwind - > Tech 3 if I have lots of fuel and game drags on.

I have simplified the build orders a little because a lot obviously depends on how your opponent plays and how the game goes in general.

Why isn´t it better to save the fuel for Tech3 and get an early Command Panther? Why isn´t it better to get Luchs and put pressure on your opponent instead of playing defensively with ISG´s?

I don´t have a very impressive record in 1on1 (a bit above 50%)so I don´t claim that the pros do it wrong but I really struggle to come up with the reasoning behind their style of playing OKW. Especially strategies that involve getting tech 3 truck and then using command-panther call-in.





28 Jan 2017, 16:57 PM
#2
avatar of Latch

Posts: 773

Your first unit is an engineer, building Kubels allows you to cap points faster than volks along with bleed your opponent without suffering any MP loss yourself, you can simply repair damage with your starting unit.

Volks are then used to pressure further/Support your following units (you need them for fausts/Incen nade), ISG's then further bleed your opponent without taking any loss yourself and the Panther can beat most armour 1v1. The rak is used to kill any early vehicle play which is easily done when combined with a volks faust, it can then be used as recon when cloaked.

Nothing is set in stone though, players wont 'always' go this but the above is a reason as to why each units used.

Try 3-4 kubels into Panzerfusilier against British and watch them struggle
28 Jan 2017, 17:49 PM
#3
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

My post was mostly about the T3 truck vs. Call-In Tank.

IMO it makes more sense to get call-in command Panther isntead of getting T3.

I wanted to know what reason their is (there must be one) for good OKW Players to choose to build T3 relatively early.
28 Jan 2017, 18:01 PM
#4
avatar of Latch

Posts: 773

Obers, tank options and to lock off a section (usually your cut off) for free.
29 Jan 2017, 03:51 AM
#5
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4

If you are playing equally you will have t4 and a p4 out before a command panther can come out. If you really need at you get the panther and call-in an ostwind from scavenge doctrine later for ai. Really spec ops is more of a panic doctrine, like armor for usf or the puma doc for Ost. If you lose your t4 or you can't afford one save for that command panther, because fuck it it's your best shot now.

In an even match the extra AT strength of the command panther doesn't justify the doctrine pick over something like scavenge, where every ability is useful. Especially when the t4 also has a panther.

That said, it is still a very popular commander to run with for the situations where you are losing to tanks and need a saving grace.
29 Jan 2017, 07:03 AM
#6
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2017, 16:57 PMLatch
Your first unit is an engineer, building Kubels allows you to cap points faster than volks along with bleed your opponent without suffering any MP loss yourself, you can simply repair damage with your starting unit.

Volks are then used to pressure further/Support your following units (you need them for fausts/Incen nade), ISG's then further bleed your opponent without taking any loss yourself and the Panther can beat most armour 1v1. The rak is used to kill any early vehicle play which is easily done when combined with a volks faust, it can then be used as recon when cloaked.

Nothing is set in stone though, players wont 'always' go this but the above is a reason as to why each units used.

Try 3-4 kubels into Panzerfusilier against British and watch them struggle

Holy shit 3-4 kubels? That's 630 or 840 manpower in units that are combat effective for about 5 minutes. Does the opponents' bleed and your lack therof really pay off that much? I also assume it's bad to let him get a vickers in a building.
29 Jan 2017, 07:04 AM
#7
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2017, 03:51 AMTobis
If you are playing equally you will have t4 and a p4 out before a command panther can come out. If you really need at you get the panther and call-in an ostwind from scavenge doctrine later for ai. Really spec ops is more of a panic doctrine, like armor for usf or the puma doc for Ost. If you lose your t4 or you can't afford one save for that command panther, because fuck it it's your best shot now.

In an even match the extra AT strength of the command panther doesn't justify the doctrine pick over something like scavenge, where every ability is useful. Especially when the t4 also has a panther.

That said, it is still a very popular commander to run with for the situations where you are losing to tanks and need a saving grace.

Saved me once from a Churchill croc. I was playing retarded and lost my kt embarrassingly fast, so he calls in the croc and I scare him off with the command panther. Callin units man.
29 Jan 2017, 16:55 PM
#8
avatar of Latch

Posts: 773


Holy shit 3-4 kubels? That's 630 or 840 manpower in units that are combat effective for about 5 minutes. Does the opponents' bleed and your lack therof really pay off that much? I also assume it's bad to let him get a vickers in a building.


ITs very effective due to how fast they cap and how much ground they can cover in a short amount of time, that 840 is what, 1 vickers squad and 2 tommie squads? The vickers will get ruined if its not in a building at which point its not being effective on the field and the tommies have no way to push off 3 kubles when 1 is pushing you out of cover and the sturmpios are rushing in for the kills.

Lose a Kuble, salvage it for fuel = faster tech. Then with all the man power saved call in the PF's a 6 man squad with scopes and AT nades, it's a nightmare to fight, absolute nightmare.

Vickers are the best counter but have huge flaws and if you go UC... T0 wild rakk appears and makes short work of your UC! I believe its Paul that does it, I'm sure there will be videos of it somewhere.
31 Jan 2017, 01:25 AM
#9
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4

3-4 kubels is not going to be a practical build order against a real opponent. Paula can get away with it because he's very good, not the kubel.

You leave yourself way too vulnerable to any form of at, and a light vehicle rush from the other player will shut you down entirely. The only time this would ever work would be against brits on a super open map like crossing in the woods. It is just way too risky to place all your starting manpower into units that are guaranteed to be wiped within the first 5 minutes of the game.
31 Jan 2017, 19:38 PM
#10
avatar of Siphon X.
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 1138 | Subs: 2

My post was mostly about the T3 truck vs. Call-In Tank.

IMO it makes more sense to get call-in command Panther isntead of getting T3.

I wanted to know what reason their is (there must be one) for good OKW Players to choose to build T3 relatively early.


To add to what Tobis said:

Ok, assuming you went Spec Ops. and BGHQ: Even if you don't have the fuel to get out a PIV before the Command Panther, it would have to be going really badly if you couldn't get T3 without delaying the Command Panther. So, the question is not call-in or T3, but T3 or doing nothing with the fuel.

The advantage of building T3 is that it can help to lock down some territory and eventually you will need it anyways...

31 Jan 2017, 20:14 PM
#11
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1

Personally I use the Command Panther as more of a supplemental counter pick to my opponent's commander (Mostly T85, Easy 8, or Call-In Sherman Spam where PZ4s will struggle and your own Mark Vehicle helps you greatly). Otherwise it's generally better to have T4 for the flexibility to get better AI with PZ4 or a JP4 on certain maps where you can use the JP4's range and cloak to your advantage.
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