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[2vs2] RIP Axis

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2 Sep 2016, 20:41 PM
#61
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072



I agree with most but the no double bars. 2 bars are worse than 1 lmg42 at max range and a-moving blobs is the main issue, so bars are not the issue, never were. 1919s on the other hand should not be possible to be double wielded, but that should then also apply to REs not just riflemen, so I'd add that as well.

BARS also come on RM that have way higher RA bonuses and a 5th man compared to grens. In addition, BARs can be fired on the move while lmg42s require you to be stationary.

That's why I'd limit BARs to 1 per squad.
2 Sep 2016, 20:46 PM
#62
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2


It still costs more so you were still wrong. Comets are easier to spam than panthers and better than them. Don't know what we need to say that will make you understand.


One could argue that Pershing is the most expensive medium tank (despite description, but who cares about them?) ;)
2 Sep 2016, 21:06 PM
#63
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned
Map pool need changes. Give more veto relic, i prefer play in more small map pool, than play in bad maps.
2 Sep 2016, 21:24 PM
#64
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072



One could argue that Pershing is the most expensive medium tank (despite description, but who cares about them?) ;)

If you're including doctrinal units then most expensive medium is command panther
2 Sep 2016, 21:37 PM
#65
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


BARS also come on RM that have way higher RA bonuses and a 5th man compared to grens. In addition, BARs can be fired on the move while lmg42s require you to be stationary.

That's why I'd limit BARs to 1 per squad.


Or you could nerf the long range capabilities of the Bar, to put it more in line with its AR profile and leave it at double wielding.
Just change the vet 3 RA bonus to be applied on cover.
3 Sep 2016, 00:13 AM
#66
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072



Or you could nerf the long range capabilities of the Bar, to put it more in line with its AR profile and leave it at double wielding.
Just change the vet 3 RA bonus to be applied on cover.

+1
3 Sep 2016, 00:35 AM
#67
avatar of Corsin

Posts: 600

This issue with 2v2 balance (and i do alot of 2v2s both sides) is the fact that allies have way too many squad wipe capabilities, where as the germans have fewer and weaker vehicle equivalents.

Infantry Issues:

The USF Rifle received accuracy: at vet 3, the received accuracy of riflemen is nearly the same as a gren squad in heavy cover. This allows them to blob+Amove with 2 lmgs per squad and mow down anything without being punished for poor micro and tactics.

Brits having access to 2 Brens per squad and a received accuracy vet bonus. While its not as good as the USF infantry bonuses, the fact they can field 2 LMG's per squad, and have 5 men squads, gives them a far higher dps than Grens/volks, Especially when in cover.

Conscripts and penals - Cons are pretty balanced, but keep in mind they are 6 man squads. The reason Prostruppen is working in 1v1s atm is because of the squad survivalbility of a 6 man squad. Here the sovs take this advantage for granted while actually been rather versatile troops. Penals are currently too good... Yeah they cost alot, but they pay for themselves with the early map control they give. In 1v1s its not too bad, you can punish them with fast light vehicles, but in 2v2s your ally can cover for this weakness leaving no weakness to the allied synergy.


Now, if we look at these advantages, and look at the Axis starting infantry. Their squad seize and heavy weapons limit to 1 per squad makes them A - Less durable, and needing to group squads to beat down allies, they simply cant 1v1 squads early game giving the allies more map control and are way more vulnerable to being 1 shot by demo/mortar/artillery. and B - Less deadly.

In the early game as axis you are left to try and cling to a vp and a fuel like a homeless man to a marsbar until you hit T2 and get some squad wipe potential. The allies dominate the early game, in 2v2 especially. Sadly this is where 90% of game results are decided.

Tanks -

Now axis have the "best" tanks, they also have the worst repair options, especially the ostheer.

However no matter how good their tanks... Fireflies/Jackson + Soviet Market target in a 2v2 will basically own anything really fast. Imo Marked target should be removed from the game, its a stupid unrealistic ability that has been ruining game balance since the beginning that even continues after the plane is shot down. So this is what makes allies abit nuts in the tank department. Yes axis have better tank stats, But allies have better ways of dealing with them, better repairs and better faction synergy.

Artillery...


onestly i think Axis artillery across the board needs buffing. Or at least given more options.

Pwefers are pretty much confetti bombs, that kill maybe a few guys, and draw circles around the target.

Stukkas are good but fuel expensive which leaves you with no armor until mid-late game.

LeFE isnt bad, but still seems to be abit lack luster...



Where as the Land mattress is just... ugh, ridiculous for how cheap it is and is easily better than a Pwerfer. Infact its 1 volly is nearly the equivelant to 3 pwerfers after eachother.

The Callipoe is a decent unit. I wouldn't say it needs to be nerfed or buffed... would just be nice if the axis had a similar unit.

Katyusha... Now alot of people say the pwerfer is better because of its alpha strike... But i disagree, The katy's AOE per shell is alot bigger. and even if you retreat as soon as you hear it fire, its second volly will plink your guys in the back of the head as the 2nd volly always seems to slightly overfire. (weapon teams have no chance). I wipe more squads using this than i ever have using a pwerfer except from the vanilla days when the pwerfer was worth its fuel cost.

To those who say the Pwerfer's alpha strike is better, what would you prefer? a quick slap in the face? or someone punching it 4 times? Its the same thing, especially when its fired at base trucks ect



I dont know the whole set up doesnt make sense... Axis having smaller squad sizes. Then Allies having the better artillery and squad wiping capabilities. As if the demo charges wernt enough to worry about. + the fact that the ostheer especially rely on weapon teams to fight rifle/penal blobs ect. Then to be hard-countered midgame by superior artillery options.


Theres a bunch more stuff like Demos, weapon team sizes, critical repair, maxim setup time.... the difference in effectiveness between things like a centuar > Ostwind, and so on.... But i think the core stats on the non-doctrinal units is the main issue.

3 Sep 2016, 06:50 AM
#68
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2


If you're including doctrinal units then most expensive medium is command panther


Didn't know that 560/225 is more than 600/230 ;)
3 Sep 2016, 07:51 AM
#69
avatar of sherlock
Patrion 14

Posts: 550 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Sep 2016, 00:35 AMCorsin


Tanks -

Now axis have the "best" tanks, they also have the worst repair options, especially the ostheer.


I'd agree for Ostheer. OKW on the other hand has the single best repair unit in the game and t2 also provides additional repair with the tech building. If I'm not mistaken sturm pios are also the only builder unit to get an increased repair rate for equipping mine sweepers, which they can stow away to avoid any penalty to their damage. They also vet easier and are more likely to survive long enough to vet due to the received accuracy bonuses they receive (2x -23%, yes even higher than what rifles get (they also start off at a smaller target size 0.87, 0.97 rifles and all other builders 1) ;) ). All in all they have a better survivability from the start that gets only better compared to all other builders. Maybe pios (and other builders) should start off at 0.87 target size as well. At least they'd be less likely to die.




Or you could nerf the long range capabilities of the Bar, to put it more in line with its AR profile and leave it at double wielding.
Just change the vet 3 RA bonus to be applied on cover.

The long range capability is adjusted. As originally stated, the longe range damage of 2 bars is less than that of one lmg42. Add to that the fact that it is two dps sources not one, which will accordingly spread the damage usually amongst two entities of an enemy squad not one and therefore reduce the enemy squad's dps less effectively even if they were doing the same damage.

Double wielded 1919s are the problem, since they're as effective as a lmg42 and share the same issues all lmgs have (allowing for a-moving since their maximum damage output is basically at max range).
3 Sep 2016, 08:02 AM
#70
avatar of Carlos Danger

Posts: 362

I feel like Allies are advantaged because of a generally stronger early game which segways into a Rifle or Section blob backed by powerful rocket artillery. The artillery largely nullifies the ability of Axis support weapons to act as a crutch and thereby allows Allied infantry to dominate. I also think the Allied factions tend just to jell together a bit better than their Axis counterparts (particularly Brits/US imo).
3 Sep 2016, 09:58 AM
#71
avatar of wandererraven

Posts: 353

waiting after Warpaint match and see how relic do
or noting
3 Sep 2016, 10:24 AM
#72
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



Didn't know that 560/225 is more than 600/230 ;)
are we counting Pershing as medium tank ? Cause we can put tiger in it too with that pathetic armor
3 Sep 2016, 10:28 AM
#73
avatar of sherlock
Patrion 14

Posts: 550 | Subs: 1

Nevermind he corrected the mistake :)
3 Sep 2016, 10:29 AM
#74
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

are we counting Pershing as medium tank ? Cause we can put tiger in it too with that pathetic armor


Tiger has similar armor as Pershing and it has HP pool of heavy tank while last time I checked Pershing had HP pool in line with heavy/mediums like Panther or Comet not Tiger, KT, IS2 or Churchill.
3 Sep 2016, 10:38 AM
#75
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

are we counting Pershing as medium tank ? Cause we can put tiger in it too with that pathetic armor

Panther is more of a heavy tank then Pershing.
3 Sep 2016, 10:39 AM
#76
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1

i guess relic introduced heavy tank limit to prevent medium spam ?
3 Sep 2016, 10:51 AM
#77
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

i guess relic introduced heavy tank limit to prevent medium spam ?


Heavy tank limit like a Churchill spam?
Or combo of King Tiger and Sturmtiger?

Relic also says that leFH is not so destructive like soviets arty but has better RoF and better range, well it does not have better range and RoF is better for amazing amount of 0,5s and ML20 isnt more powerful as well (just a bit more)
3 Sep 2016, 11:29 AM
#78
avatar of Corsin

Posts: 600


I'd agree for Ostheer. OKW on the other hand has the single best repair unit in the game and t2 also provides additional repair with the tech building. If I'm not mistaken sturm pios are also the only builder unit to get an increased repair rate for equipping mine sweepers, which they can stow away to avoid any penalty to their damage. They also vet easier and are more likely to survive long enough to vet due to the received accuracy bonuses they receive (2x -23%, yes even higher than what rifles get (they also start off at a smaller target size 0.87, 0.97 rifles and all other builders 1) ;) ). All in all they have a better survivability from the start that gets only better compared to all other builders. Maybe pios (and other builders) should start off at 0.87 target size as well. At least they'd be less likely to die.




The reason i was reffering to the allies as better here is because of

A) - US Vehicle crews with crit repair
B) - Self repair on some light vehicles, (T70 and Bren carrier)
C) - Lots of doctrinal auto repairs on the sov and Brit factions. (especially the brits with the smoke shield)
D) - The allies have combat repair options, the axis you have to run the tank back to base or risk your pio's being 1 shot by some artillery or attacking tank, where as the allies can in most cases stay near the front and not surrender ground, so while the hps of the repairs may not be as good as sturms, tactically and strategically, they are better.
3 Sep 2016, 11:34 AM
#79
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



Tiger has similar armor as Pershing and it has HP pool of heavy tank while last time I checked Pershing had HP pool in line with heavy/mediums like Panther or Comet not Tiger, KT, IS2 or Churchill.
hp is not all if so Churchill should be capped to 1 count the gun too
3 Sep 2016, 11:38 AM
#80
avatar of Corsin

Posts: 600

hp is not all if so Churchill should be capped to 1 count the gun too


Exactly. Pershing seems to do alot more damage to infantry too... then again may seem that way because its fireing at 4man squads.

Ive not checked the AOE and scatter stats of the pershing.
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