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Why Ostheer is currently not much fun in my opinion

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10 May 2016, 12:10 PM
#81
avatar of Crumbum

Posts: 213

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 11:56 AMButcher
As I stated earlier: That was the initial design behind Ostheer. But now the lategame is mediocre at best. There is no punch in Ostheer armor. Now you lump behind early only to be on par lategame.

Highfive pointed it out: Everything Ostheer does, the Brits do better.


+1. Ost are a reactive faction for the early/mid game which is fine, but when it comes to the latter stages of a game where they are theoretically supposed to be better, they are placed on the back foot again because the power creep of not only the WFA but also brits, who can do what ost do but better.
10 May 2016, 12:28 PM
#82
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 12:04 PMJohnnyB


This sounds nicely in theory but I would like to see you doing that against an equally skilled oponnent and win 50% of times.
What you described above = losing initiative early game and still trying to win. Good luck with that.

Unless you play osttruppen into fast T2 vs brits, you don't really have any initiative in the first place.
Until T2 is up its all about not losing your native fuel.

You can be more aggressive to a point if you get early sniper only.

Ost never was dictating(or even meant to) pace of early game unless it was OP AF(first month HMG42 into flame HT or march deployment grens).

Vs sov, its really who plays better.
Vs USF it was always a struggle, because USF can do only one single unit, which needs to be strong enough to overcome grens+support.
Vs brits they do extremely well with osttruppen and underpriced 222.

Plus, Hans seems to be doing just fine.

Its not about losing unitiative, because there is only one MU where ost have it, but about not losing T2 tech race by not losing fuel early on.
10 May 2016, 12:34 PM
#83
avatar of mortiferum

Posts: 571

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 12:28 PMKatitof

Unless you play osttruppen into fast T2 vs brits, you don't really have any initiative in the first place.
Until T2 is up its all about not losing your native fuel.

You can be more aggressive to a point if you get early sniper only.

Ost never was dictating(or even meant to) pace of early game unless it was OP AF(first month HMG42 into flame HT or march deployment grens).

Vs sov, its really who plays better.
Vs USF it was always a struggle, because USF can do only one single unit, which needs to be strong enough to overcome grens+support.
Vs brits they do extremely well with osttruppen and underpriced 222.

Plus, Hans seems to be doing just fine.

Its not about losing unitiative, because there is only one MU where ost have it, but about not losing T2 tech race by not losing fuel early on.


Minor problem.

Ostheer can hold as long as they like vs USSR and USF because they are also not too good at holding land. This means Ostheer can hold, then counter attack (Defensive vs Offensive)

On the other hand, holding against UKF guarantees you a mortar emplacement and bofor outside your base. So you kinda need to push, but then cant push but need to push. Mortar emplacements have no counter (Mortar emplacement >>>>>> Mortar team) for Ost, and have sufficient range to threaten more than just the VPs and fuel if you are too defensive.
10 May 2016, 12:35 PM
#84
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 12:28 PMKatitof


You can be more aggressive to a point if you get early sniper only.



Which in my opinion is mandatory, to bad I am bad with it. A defensive stance is not going to have winning chances unless your opponent will bleed hard enough to make it count.

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 12:28 PMKatitof

Plus, Hans seems to be doing just fine.



Let hans play only with grenadiers and me play with whatever i want and he will still beat me :D. That proves nothing, top players are top players.
10 May 2016, 12:47 PM
#85
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 12:35 PMJohnnyB


Which in my opinion is mandatory, to bad I am bad with it. A defensive stance is not going to have winning chances unless your opponent will bleed hard enough to make it count.

You're not supposed to be defensive for the whole game.
You need to have decent fuel control until you get T2 and pump one of the lights to harass and push with.
222 is underpriced for current stats AF, so just use it in pairs to counter everything except AT guns and dedicated TD lights and 251 is getting a powerful buff too.


Let hans play only with grenadiers and me play with whatever i want and he will still beat me :D. That proves nothing, top players are top players.

You seem to forget that top players also play against other top players and best them, that includes Hans :hansWUT:
10 May 2016, 12:55 PM
#86
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 12:47 PMKatitof


222 is underpriced for current stats AF, so just use it in pairs to counter everything except AT guns and dedicated TD lights and 251 is getting a powerful buff too.



Except every fuel drop feels like counting for OH currently more than for other factions. Guards or even riflemen / REs with zooks will simply negate your 222 play and if you build a pair of it, you will invest resources in something that won't survive long in such conditions. Or, if they survive, they will just duck most of the remaining game time. Like I said, in theory things are fine, but actually they just aren't.
10 May 2016, 13:09 PM
#87
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3597 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 12:55 PMJohnnyB


Except every fuel drop feels like counting for OH currently more than for other factions. Guards or even riflemen / REs with zooks will simply negate your 222 play and if you build a pair of it, you will invest resources in something that won't survive long in such conditions. Or, if they survive, they will just duck most of the remaining game time. Like I said, in theory things are fine, but actually they just aren't.


Planning as a strategy around not building X or Y unit because it doesn't survive late game is probably the root of 50% of your lose.

The right question is how do you balance the price you pay / the price you make your opponent pay to counter and bleed mp from it.
2x 222 is a small price investment in comparison with the price Sov or USF pay to counter it. 420mp and 30 fuel, that's nothing if you micro it well. Zooks cost 15 fuel to unlock and 50ammo per model equiped, Guard cost a doctrine choice and 1 squad more than your 222mp price.
10 May 2016, 13:15 PM
#88
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 13:09 PMEsxile


Planning as a strategy around not building X or Y unit because it doesn't survive late game is probably the root of 50% of your lose.


That's an interesting theory.

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 13:09 PMEsxile


Guard cost a doctrine choice.



Ummm.... what amount of mp/fuel/amo do you exactly pay for picking a doctrine...?! Especialy when guards doctrines are not bad at all while the unit itself is a verry good unit.

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 13:09 PMEsxile

(costs) 1 squad more than your 222mp price


Do you care to explain this concept?
10 May 2016, 13:58 PM
#89
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3597 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 13:15 PMJohnnyB


That's an interesting theory.



Do you care to explain this concept?


Guards do not cost only 210mp, on the mp war 2x222 is cheaper than 2xGuards. Using your 2x222 combined you'll eventually bleed him harder than he does to you. Just be smart enough to not lose your 222 too quickly.
10 May 2016, 18:04 PM
#90
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Although it's not necessary to pull 2x222 against SU, specially if he has Guards on their commander loadout.

It has more merit against either USF or UKF but still, imo, too much commitment.
10 May 2016, 23:33 PM
#91
avatar of Thunderhun

Posts: 1613

Why not 5 men Pio squads? They cost 200 and sometimes lose vs CE, RE.

It would help preventing flanks, increasing repair times, base building, mine laying etc.

PS: Someone pls nerf the stug-e, that shit is OP af with its insane vet and TWP.
11 May 2016, 00:33 AM
#92
avatar of FalseAlarm

Posts: 182

Permanently Banned
Brits are your problem. Remove/Nerf them to the ground and everything will be fine.


Ostheer is the second strongest faction in game. Thanks to the 42 and paks/stug walls. Even the slightest buff will render USF ded.

And 2x 222s solve most of your troubles aginst lights, mediums (if u can get into their rear).
11 May 2016, 00:41 AM
#93
avatar of tightrope
Senior Caster Badge
Patrion 39

Posts: 1194 | Subs: 29

By the time you can get a medium tank out you have usually lost due to other factions having a light vehicle advantage. Hopefully the tech cost reductions will open up teching again, because relying on the puma and stug e is getting stale.
11 May 2016, 07:09 AM
#94
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3597 | Subs: 1

By the time you can get a medium tank out you have usually lost due to other factions having a light vehicle advantage.


Weird comment, I have see many matchs cast by you and other casters from Coh2.org where Ostheer players were able to field 3 or more Pz4s while this was not true for their opponents. I had a game yesterday where I field 2x 222 and maybe 5 or 6 stugs + 2 Command tanks.
11 May 2016, 07:21 AM
#95
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1



Minor problem.

Ostheer can hold as long as they like vs USSR and USF because they are also not too good at holding land. This means Ostheer can hold, then counter attack (Defensive vs Offensive)

On the other hand, holding against UKF guarantees you a mortar emplacement and bofor outside your base. So you kinda need to push, but then cant push but need to push. Mortar emplacements have no counter (Mortar emplacement >>>>>> Mortar team) for Ost, and have sufficient range to threaten more than just the VPs and fuel if you are too defensive.


Why would you play defensively against UKF? Get a sniper, force them off their fuel. Laugh as they have no early game counter (universal carrier is the worst sniper hunter in the game).
11 May 2016, 12:13 PM
#96
avatar of Blalord

Posts: 742 | Subs: 1



Why would you play defensively against UKF? Get a sniper, force them off their fuel. Laugh as they have no early game counter (universal carrier is the worst sniper hunter in the game).


And get counter sniped mins later
11 May 2016, 12:15 PM
#97
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post11 May 2016, 12:13 PMBlalord


And get counter sniped mins later

Or you could YOLO that 222 into AT-helpless brit.
Not like there is anything able to threaten it before bofors or AEC, in case of latter, just get 2nd 222 and hardcounter AEC for under half of its cost.
11 May 2016, 12:42 PM
#98
avatar of Blalord

Posts: 742 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 May 2016, 12:15 PMKatitof

Or you could YOLO that 222 into AT-helpless brit.
Not like there is anything able to threaten it before bofors or AEC, in case of latter, just get 2nd 222 and hardcounter AEC for under half of its cost.


Mines, AT gun, not Yoloing with AEC ? Same way OST had to handle Stuart and AEC in the past.

Btw i am not saying 222 does not need a little cost increase, i am just argumenting that ost sniper against Brit is not obvious as against USF
11 May 2016, 12:57 PM
#99
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post11 May 2016, 12:42 PMBlalord


Mines, AT gun, not Yoloing with AEC ? Same way OST had to handle Stuart and AEC in the past.

Ost in the past didn't had 15 fuel light tank :) But I see your point, ost is fuel heavy in early game, brits are mp heavy.

Btw i am not saying 222 does not need a little cost increase, i am just argumenting that ost sniper against Brit is not obvious as against USF

Yeah, that is obvious.
Can still make a difference at these first 5 minutes before brit sniper hits the field.
11 May 2016, 14:19 PM
#100
avatar of mortiferum

Posts: 571



Why would you play defensively against UKF? Get a sniper, force them off their fuel. Laugh as they have no early game counter (universal carrier is the worst sniper hunter in the game).


Someone mentioned that you should play defensively to win as Ostheer, I merely replied.
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