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Updates on BALANCE PREVIEW MOD

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30 Apr 2016, 14:55 PM
#361
avatar of ilGetUSomDay

Posts: 612

We did an in house last night with the mod. The volks without their shreks preformed fantastic with their mp44s and snare. the reliance on raketens as opposed to shrecks made more even, interesting fights as shrecks didnt just blob in and push back everything.

+1 fun mod, the shreck concern is not a problem.
30 Apr 2016, 14:59 PM
#362
avatar of G4bb4_G4nd4lf
Donator 33

Posts: 658

I'm not saying that all points of the game are balanced. Late game definitely needs to be looked at, but I consider the volks mp44 upgrade to be a varient of the Rifles Bar upgrade.

As many have noticed the mp44 upgrade doesn't change the volks effective range. They still good at all ranges if not better at all ranges with the upgrade. They're basically getting Obers inferred STGs.


LOL no they don't get IR StGs.

And they are not the OKW version of BARs either because BARs actually INCREASE long range DPS of Riflemen by a significant amount (Garand DPS is 1.84 / BAR DPS is 5 at max range).
30 Apr 2016, 15:44 PM
#363
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 978

What about also giving PGs the Volks StG44? I don´t like how PGs suck compared to regular Grens because of their lackluster range. Ost lacks useful infantry.
30 Apr 2016, 19:12 PM
#364
avatar of drChengele
Patrion 14

Posts: 640 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2016, 12:18 PMButcher
Churchill, KVs, ISU didn´t receive any nerf. This is just a nerf to German vehicles. Not enough: Only the Allied tank destroyers received buffs.
It is almost as if the NUMBER of nerfs applied doesn't really matter, rather the effectiveness of the units on the field does. YOU NERFED KT, NOW NERF KV WAAAAAH is pure and simple whining, "if I can't have my toys then noone else can either (even though their toys were worn out and broke down a long time ago)".

Churchill didn't receive nerf? It got nerfed in October. HP 1600 to 1400, armour reduced from 280 to 200 (a 40% armour decrease!). Its cost was increased from 540/150 to 540/180. In that patch the KT was untouched (except getting reduced to 21 popcap from 26). Where were you back then to champion the equality of buffs and nerfs between armour of varied factions?


jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2016, 12:18 PMButcher
If you don´t see how a super slow, super expensive and easy to penetrate Elefant is a bad idea, we have nothing to discuss.
If you don't see how a super slow, super expensive and easy to penetrate from the sides after a successful flank Elefant, being left unsupported and allowed to be flanked by inferior Axis armour is a bad idea, we have nothing to discuss indeed.
30 Apr 2016, 19:22 PM
#365
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

If you don't see how a super slow, super expensive and easy to penetrate from the sides after a successful flank Elefant, being left unsupported and allowed to be flanked by inferior Axis armour is a bad idea, we have nothing to discuss indeed.

Indeed. If any vehicles are left underpowered by this, they should be buffed in entirely different regards. Making flanks work is something that should stay.
nee
30 Apr 2016, 19:28 PM
#366
avatar of nee

Posts: 1216

They tried that a little bit. They significantly lowered the accuracy of the shrek to make them less likely to alpha strike light vehicles into the ground. The issue persisted because of the sheer number of shreks that were likely to be around.

The issue with that was the volume of shreks. If you reduced them further they were individually unsatisfying and bordering on useless. When firing in a 4+ squad pack they were about right but you'd never use them unless in a pack.

As far as handheld AT the mechanics need to be very carefully fine tuned. Shreks came too early, shut down too many options for allied commanders and were over all just a sort of no brainer.
So give them to Obers? As an upgrade it locks out the IR MP44/ LMG34 upgrade. They come in T3 and alongside medium armour competes with a vehicle strategy vs AT infantry strat.
Even in custom games featuring high income and popcap I never field more than two Obers at a time, they augment my infantry and building them means I can't build medium armour.
30 Apr 2016, 19:43 PM
#367
avatar of ABlockOfSalt

Posts: 70

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2016, 19:28 PMnee
So give them to Obers? As an upgrade it locks out the IR MP44/ LMG34 upgrade. They come in T3 and alongside medium armour competes with a vehicle strategy vs AT infantry strat.
Even in custom games featuring high income and popcap I never field more than two Obers at a time, they augment my infantry and building them means I can't build medium armour.



Id probably be okay with them on Obers now that they're off volks but I think adding an actual tank hunter unit would be easier than trying to make hardcore AI badasses into "meh" anti-tank squads.

That being said I don't think it would be a button anyone would press.


30 Apr 2016, 20:28 PM
#368
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1217

If you don't see how a super slow, super expensive and easy to penetrate from the sides after a successful flank Elefant, being left unsupported and allowed to be flanked by inferior Axis armour is a bad idea, we have nothing to discuss indeed.
You are completely missing the point. The thing is always flanked. Driving in three T-34s is no art. Even with support you can drive in, destroy the Elefant and go out simply because it can´t escape. While doing so you might lose one T-34. Even if you lose two it payed off for you. And that versus an AT unit. Paks and Fausts can support it but hordes of mediums easily swarm that.

Churchill didn't receive nerf? It got nerfed in October. HP 1600 to 1400, armour reduced from 280 to 200 (a 40% armour decrease!). Its cost was increased from 540/150 to 540/180. In that patch the KT was untouched (except getting reduced to 21 popcap from 26). Where were you back then to champion the equality of buffs and nerfs between armour of varied factions?
I wrote about the combination of buffs + nerfs. When the Churchill was nerfed in October was the JP IV buffed, the Panther? Tank destroyers remained untouched. This patch we get the full combination of Firefly buffs, Medium buffs, Su-85 buffs and heavy nerfs. Figure out how that is going to synergize before getting angry.
nee
30 Apr 2016, 22:12 PM
#369
avatar of nee

Posts: 1216




Id probably be okay with them on Obers now that they're off volks but I think adding an actual tank hunter unit would be easier than trying to make hardcore AI badasses into "meh" anti-tank squads.

That being said I don't think it would be a button anyone would press.



The thing about Obers is that they're in a weird place- they are great AI but by that time you need armour, both in terms of manpower and the build slot, of which Obers compete with armour in T3, but offer zero AT benefit. Option to go schreck vs LMG34 would be nice, plus it brings back panzerschreck AND prevents volks blob if a player ever wants to go for them.

Adding an actual tank hunter unit exacerbates balance situation by comparison. IMO Obers should have filled that role, and the closest we have to a third alternative is Panzerfusiliers which just shifts the blob from one unit type to another.
1 May 2016, 14:26 PM
#370
avatar of drChengele
Patrion 14

Posts: 640 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2016, 20:28 PMButcher
You are completely missing the point. The thing is always flanked. Driving in three T-34s is no art. Even with support you can drive in, destroy the Elefant and go out simply because it can´t escape. While doing so you might lose one T-34. Even if you lose two it payed off for you. And that versus an AT unit. Paks and Fausts can support it but hordes of mediums easily swarm that.
I guess where our points of view differ is that I think the Elefant absolutely SHOULD be vulnerable to flanks. It should not shut down all tank counterplay. If the enemy is spamming cheap, mobile mediums, then maybe opting for an expensive, heavy and slow tank destroyer should not be your first choice. Get 3 Stugs instead.

This patch we get the full combination of Firefly buffs, Medium buffs, Su-85 buffs and heavy nerfs. Figure out how that is going to synergize before getting angry.
The Su85 was buffnerfed, really. Its DPS versus mediums actually went down a bit, if I am reading the notes correctly. Firefly was buffnerfed as well, Tulips are (deservedly) no longer the alpha killer they once were.

Yes, Relic does tend to overbuff and overnerf things when they attempt to balance stuff. But to me all of this looks to be good, sensible changes. The Volks change alone is huge, it will revolutionize the meta. I don't think anyone of us knows how it will turn out. But superheavies were too dominant in anything above 1v1 and I happen to be in the camp who thinks that the game should at least try and toss a balance bone or two to the most popular game types, even if they are considered a random noob spamfests.
1 May 2016, 16:34 PM
#371
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2



Vet 5 KT? No way! I know it's impossible cause I read the forum and I see all the time that it's impossible to get vet 5 with KT becasue it's weak, expensive, arrives too late and single Jackson can force it to stay behind for entire game! Forum cannot lie! :luvDerp:


Pretty much.
1 May 2016, 17:16 PM
#372
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3593 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Apr 2016, 20:28 PMButcher
You are completely missing the point. The thing is always flanked. Driving in three T-34s is no art. Even with support you can drive in, destroy the Elefant and go out simply because it can´t escape. While doing so you might lose one T-34. Even if you lose two it payed off for you. And that versus an AT unit. Paks and Fausts can support it but hordes of mediums easily swarm that.


I'm quite interested in what can counter Elephant if it natural counter (swarming cheap tanks) isn't allowed?
1 May 2016, 18:37 PM
#373
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

An even bigger gun to slug it out, obviously.

Just like how the best boxing matches are just two guys throwing haymakers until one drops or the bell rings.

:megusta:
1 May 2016, 20:01 PM
#374
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 236

Mp44s like i said honestly fit very well with volks and with the general flow of the game, but are making them more spammy. It also puts not just ober, but all other anti infantry in a weird spot.

The vet on volks makes them reallly good late game still.

This could be fixed by increasing vet requirments on other units such as obers, but making the vet grand better rewards? So they're more considered in being purchased?
1 May 2016, 20:05 PM
#375
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1217

jump backJump back to quoted post1 May 2016, 17:16 PMEsxile


I'm quite interested in what can counter Elephant if it natural counter (swarming cheap tanks) isn't allowed?
AT guns. Offmap. Artillery. Bazookas. And of course vehicles. The last one is easy enough to do already. Now everything can drive there and defeat it. No sense in an Elefant if exactly the thing it is supposed to hard counter hard counters the Elefant. No need to go for a thing that can´t fight infantry and can´t fight mediums. That leaves the Elefant to counter two units in the game: The IS-2 and the ISU. Hardly worth going for it imo.
1 May 2016, 20:11 PM
#376
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17866 | Subs: 8

AT guns. Offmap. Artillery. Bazookas.

What if ele owner is not AFK?

Now everything can drive there and defeat it. No sense in an Elefant if exactly the thing it is supposed to hard counter hard counters the Elefant. No need to go for a thing that can´t fight infantry and can´t fight mediums. That leaves the Elefant to counter two units in the game: The IS-2 and the ISU. Hardly worth going for it imo.

Extremely flawed logic.
Unless you believe that tanks shouldn't be able to counter AT guns, because AT guns are supposed to hardcounter tanks.

Ele 2 shots mediums. If that isn't hardcountering, I don't know what is.
You need to defend it?
Well guess what?
No undefended unit will last long on its own, this is how the game works, if you don't cover for your shit with combined arms(aka 2 paks in the back in this case), then you lose shit.

Other player managed to get a couple of tanks ?BEHIND your super heavy TD?
Congrats, you got outplayed/didn't anticipated/don't know what tellers are/had AT guns god knows where, but not in the place they were supposed to be.

If you don't know units weaknesses and how to cover up for them, you'll be losing units regardless of how strong they are on their own.
1 May 2016, 20:50 PM
#377
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1217

An Elefant will get flanked. Always. because it is the slowest vehicle in the game. Any halfway competent player can defeat an Elefant with ease and swarm the support. You didn´t get outplayed as the Elefant is designed to be flanked. Now it´s going down even faster. As if it wasn´t punishing enough already to get flanked. And you know that.
1 May 2016, 21:02 PM
#378
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17866 | Subs: 8

Then don't buy it.

Buy it when you see ISU or IS-2 if you are incapable of placing teller mine or two on flank and put a pair of PAKs behind it.

And yes, it wasn't punishing enough, because its rear armor was still damn high, resulting in frequent bounces, which meant its only weakness wasn't really a weakness as you still had huge hp poll to chip down and were guaranteed to lose tanks in the process.
nee
1 May 2016, 21:39 PM
#379
avatar of nee

Posts: 1216

Mp44s like i said honestly fit very well with volks and with the general flow of the game, but are making them more spammy. It also puts not just ober, but all other anti infantry in a weird spot.

The vet on volks makes them reallly good late game still.

This could be fixed by increasing vet requirments on other units such as obers, but making the vet grand better rewards? So they're more considered in being purchased?


Have to agree, playing a few matches I fond VOlks just as blobsworthy, but now even more effective because they can let you dominate early game and grab resources to go for tanks. You either succeed and Volks just get relegated to dealing with infantry, or you don't and you need to start using Pumas and Rak43s. This is even more so because you have zero AT infantry alternatives; at least before you could use Volks to augment other AT efforts.

It's an interesting change in how you play as OKW...but not in the way that does away with Volksblob. Most of the enemies I fought with them were infantry too, which means that Volks can often end up being even more effective because the blob can wipe out anything- in this case the mod just switches from vehicles to infantry.

I actually think that, if I had a blob and given two upgrade options- one AI and one AT- the result would be more diverse and versatile, but not in a blobbing way.

Take for example a blob of four Volks squads- either four schrecks or four STGs, they are pretty powerful. 2x of each may make them more versatile but also means that they are less effective against clumps of either.

With that in mind I think the real solution should be raising their vet requirements plus further nerfs. Heck, I'd think giving them the cover bonuses like Infantry Section can drastically affect Volksblobbing, they'd get cut down to shreds fast unless you micromanage them behind cover and buildings. It can be defensive bonuses instead of rate of fire.

TLDR: no matter what upgrades you give to Volks, their current stats as squads makes them blobworthy, not the weapons they can upgrade to.
1 May 2016, 22:27 PM
#380
avatar of broodwarjc

Posts: 824

jump backJump back to quoted post1 May 2016, 21:39 PMnee


Have to agree, playing a few matches I fond VOlks just as blobsworthy, but now even more effective because they can let you dominate early game and grab resources to go for tanks. You either succeed and Volks just get relegated to dealing with infantry, or you don't and you need to start using Pumas and Rak43s. This is even more so because you have zero AT infantry alternatives; at least before you could use Volks to augment other AT efforts.

It's an interesting change in how you play as OKW...but not in the way that does away with Volksblob. Most of the enemies I fought with them were infantry too, which means that Volks can often end up being even more effective because the blob can wipe out anything- in this case the mod just switches from vehicles to infantry.

I actually think that, if I had a blob and given two upgrade options- one AI and one AT- the result would be more diverse and versatile, but not in a blobbing way.

Take for example a blob of four Volks squads- either four schrecks or four STGs, they are pretty powerful. 2x of each may make them more versatile but also means that they are less effective against clumps of either.

With that in mind I think the real solution should be raising their vet requirements plus further nerfs. Heck, I'd think giving them the cover bonuses like Infantry Section can drastically affect Volksblobbing, they'd get cut down to shreds fast unless you micromanage them behind cover and buildings. It can be defensive bonuses instead of rate of fire.

TLDR: no matter what upgrades you give to Volks, their current stats as squads makes them blobworthy, not the weapons they can upgrade to.


The change to Volks was not to stop an AI blob... it was to stop an AT blob. The problem was a rolling wave of 6 Shreks, with 5 men for retreating and surviving and with 5 levels of Vet, for the loads of Allies' medium tanks. The change was in no way to stop the Volks blob (all factions can blob right now with at least one of their units), but it was to give Allies tanks in all game modes(especially team modes) a better chance against OKW.
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