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Updates on BALANCE PREVIEW MOD

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26 Apr 2016, 12:29 PM
#321
avatar of drChengele
Patrion 14

Posts: 639 | Subs: 1

Can't speak for others but rifle blobs ARE a problem. The reason Volks get more attention is that they completely dominate the meta at the moment. They shut down vehicle and tank play from the paper armoured Allied tanks. Rifles are a core unit, dedicating two Zooks makes significant impact on AI dps while Volks lose less DPS and are supplemented by other infantry types. Furthermore, German tanks are armoured and can afford some degree of maneuver even against Zookblob. Lastly, Werfer and Stuka are much more punishing blob control weapons than Allied counterparts (katyusha being the only stock one). Finally, Axis tanks are not required to flank, while allied ones are, and infantry held AT is the most flexible way to shut down tank flanks. Axis doesn't need to flank Shermans or Jacksons to penetrate so one of the most frequent causes of exposure to Schrecks (flank) doesn't apply to bazookas.
26 Apr 2016, 12:55 PM
#322
avatar of Aladdin

Posts: 959

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2016, 11:12 AMDiePest
Since everyone is discussing the removal of Schrecks and how aweful the Shreck Blobs are (were), I have a serios question.

First of all I´m not a very experienced player and I´m also not a very good player. So while this might be a l2p issue on my had, I ask myself why rifleblobs ( bar, 1919 and zooks) aren´t considered a problem. Can someone explain that to me? I know there is quite a difference stats wise between Schreck and Zook but non the less zook blobs are pretty potent against tanks. Again judging from my own very limited perspective and streams and casts that I usually watch.

I feel like the Pershing commander really works well with zook blobs. Yesterdays propagandacast is kind of an example for that.

Why not make all those weopons of all factions take up two slots on the units?

As I said I´m looking for an explaination here because with my rank and skill in the game I won´t judge if something needs changing. i just find it not very pleasing to play against so it all comes down to personal experiance and preferrance. I find it just odd that unsupportet infantry of any faction can fight an with infantry supportet, anti infantry tank like for example the Ostwind.


Since USF does not have the super/sexy tanks/units OKW has and they don't benefit the same truck design as OKW; forward medic, repair, flak etc, late game OKW tanks/AT guns 1,2,3 shot most USF tanks, and OKW tank, AT guns never deflect a shot to USF armor, when the opposite is very likely to happen
26 Apr 2016, 15:23 PM
#323
avatar of DiePest

Posts: 90

Can't speak for others but rifle blobs ARE a problem. The reason Volks get more attention is that they completely dominate the meta at the moment. They shut down vehicle and tank play from the paper armoured Allied tanks. Rifles are a core unit, dedicating two Zooks makes significant impact on AI dps while Volks lose less DPS and are supplemented by other infantry types. Furthermore, German tanks are armoured and can afford some degree of maneuver even against Zookblob. Lastly, Werfer and Stuka are much more punishing blob control weapons than Allied counterparts (katyusha being the only stock one). Finally, Axis tanks are not required to flank, while allied ones are, and infantry held AT is the most flexible way to shut down tank flanks. Axis doesn't need to flank Shermans or Jacksons to penetrate so one of the most frequent causes of exposure to Schrecks (flank) doesn't apply to bazookas.


Thanks for the explanation!

Maybe the problem is more a doctrinal one since the Pershing is more like the heavier axis tanks and 1919s pack quite a bit of punch. But since I don't own that doctrine a can't really speak from experience. Anyways, I hope that all the blobbing will be addressed some time as I find it not very entertaining. Neither for the blobber nor for the receiving end.
aaa
26 Apr 2016, 16:00 PM
#324
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1466

PAtch date? NOw its just impossible to play in late vs okw as su.
26 Apr 2016, 20:53 PM
#325
avatar of drChengele
Patrion 14

Posts: 639 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2016, 15:23 PMDiePest


Thanks for the explanation!

Maybe the problem is more a doctrinal one since the Pershing is more like the heavier axis tanks and 1919s pack quite a bit of punch. But since I don't own that doctrine a can't really speak from experience. Anyways, I hope that all the blobbing will be addressed some time as I find it not very entertaining. Neither for the blobber nor for the receiving end.
Any time, just bear in mind that I play more team games than 1v1s, but I think the general principles apply.

Regarding blobbing, I am 100% with you. Spam should be a valid strategy (as opposed to blobbing) but when a single unit does everything well it is always cause for concern and typically leads to nobrain abuse (case in point : Volks and Bazooka rifles). Antiblob counters are sadly somewhat lackluster, locked behind commanders (USF, UKF) or late teching (Ost, Sov) etc.

If the Volks change sticks, as I sincerely hope it will, I for one would not be opposed to looking at the problem of Rifle blobs. Fair is fair.
26 Apr 2016, 21:58 PM
#326
avatar of Mistah_S

Posts: 851 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2016, 11:12 AMDiePest

So while this might be a l2p issue on my had, I ask myself why rifleblobs ( bar, 1919 and zooks) aren´t considered a problem. Can someone explain that to me? I know there is quite a difference stats wise between Schreck and Zook but non the less zook blobs are pretty potent against tanks. Again judging from my own very limited perspective and streams and casts that I usually watch.

As I said I´m looking for an explaination here because with my rank and skill in the game I won´t judge if something needs changing. i just find it not very pleasing to play against so it all comes down to personal experiance and preferrance. I find it just odd that unsupportet infantry of any faction can fight an with infantry supportet, anti infantry tank like for example the Ostwind.


F*CKING THIS!!!

The amount of tears that come from the double standard Allies shits me up the wall.

When OKW does it its called blobbing.
WHen UKF/USA does it, its called tactics.
26 Apr 2016, 22:04 PM
#327
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1383

The counter to any blob is to build two suppression teams.

One might not be enough. Two is always enough.
26 Apr 2016, 22:10 PM
#328
avatar of Mistah_S

Posts: 851 | Subs: 1

The counter to any blob is to build two suppression teams.

One might not be enough. Two is always enough.


I know this mate.
That's why I prefer OST when playing 4v4 and spam MG's.
I then get called a 'noob spammer' by the enemy team, who proceed to build nothing but riflemen.
26 Apr 2016, 22:12 PM
#329
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2546 | Subs: 1

Can't build anything other than riflemen with USF. :foreveralone:
26 Apr 2016, 22:30 PM
#330
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 1

Can't build anything other than riflemen with USF. :foreveralone:

You can build REs instead so your blob can have even more men in it :foreveralone:
26 Apr 2016, 22:31 PM
#331
avatar of LuGer33

Posts: 174

Can't speak for others but rifle blobs ARE a problem. The reason Volks get more attention is that they completely dominate the meta at the moment. They shut down vehicle and tank play from the paper armoured Allied tanks. Rifles are a core unit, dedicating two Zooks makes significant impact on AI dps while Volks lose less DPS and are supplemented by other infantry types. Furthermore, German tanks are armoured and can afford some degree of maneuver even against Zookblob. Lastly, Werfer and Stuka are much more punishing blob control weapons than Allied counterparts (katyusha being the only stock one). Finally, Axis tanks are not required to flank, while allied ones are, and infantry held AT is the most flexible way to shut down tank flanks. Axis doesn't need to flank Shermans or Jacksons to penetrate so one of the most frequent causes of exposure to Schrecks (flank) doesn't apply to bazookas.

Perfect answer.
27 Apr 2016, 06:47 AM
#332
avatar of Mathias_Bras

Posts: 83

I read though all this and the whole time I was thinking about rifle blobs. Glad it is coming up here now.

Rifle blobs were always better than Volks blobs. They always have been and always will be. They have much better AI than volks and their bazookas (although not as damaging as shrecks) still made armor run away or die.

I cant believe people think rifle blobs are okay, but somehow volks were a problem. Talk about bias. Both blobs are super annoying and effective. Trouble is OKW elite units are lackluster and US don't even have any. So we nerf the OKW blob and leave the rifle as it was?! Terrible idea.

Overall, I actually think the truck side upgrades are just fine. I think it is stupid to give OKW an MG. Where is the asymmetry?

Honestly, this whole patch looks to be an allied only wishlist.
27 Apr 2016, 07:22 AM
#333
avatar of Horasu

Posts: 279

I was hoping for more changes to even out the stuff in this patch, like those buffs to the battlegroup HQ units, but I guess, since it's coming out tomorrow, we're going to get the changes as is.
27 Apr 2016, 08:02 AM
#334
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2825 | Subs: 1

I read though all this and the whole time I was thinking about rifle blobs. Glad it is coming up here now.

Rifle blobs were always better than Volks blobs. They always have been and always will be. They have much better AI than volks and their bazookas (although not as damaging as shrecks) still made armor run away or die.

I cant believe people think rifle blobs are okay, but somehow volks were a problem. Talk about bias. Both blobs are super annoying and effective. Trouble is OKW elite units are lackluster and US don't even have any. So we nerf the OKW blob and leave the rifle as it was?! Terrible idea.

Overall, I actually think the truck side upgrades are just fine. I think it is stupid to give OKW an MG. Where is the asymmetry?

Honestly, this whole patch looks to be an allied only wishlist.


Problem with USF blob is you remove what makes rifles being able to blob, ok. What next, how do you balance USF with other factions? If you modify USF Rifle squads stats and upgrades, you're modifying 50% of the faction units and strength. You make them equal or weaker with Grens while more expensive? Or you also modify Grens stats to keep the balance between both units? But if you mod Grens stat, you'll also need to mod Cons stats because they cost the same price and you finish with Tommies because you can't let them that strong.

OKW has no mainline infantry, saying volks are is an error, they're supposed to be the equivalent of Rear Echelon, the guys you send as meat shield or support, not the guy you send to do the dps stuff. So nerfing they DPS isn't an issue balance wise, because OKW has plenty of tools to do specific dps. Today it is an issue from player perspective because volks blob has always be the best way to use the faction.
I'm not saying OKW will not suffer from lacks or being underpowered with those changes, but the problem is how do you want to balance the faction and units if you don't get ride of the volks blob first. How do you know how well works the PUMA if nobody uses it. I can tell you the PUMA is a great under use unit, same as the Flak HT, that a great unit with couple of volks around to act as meatshield.

Now, to come back to USF, Rifle squads are unique combat infantry, no Sturmpioneer, no Obers, no pzgren, no UK superengineer, no Penals(if they get buff as the patch says) and only 2 doctrines providing elite troops, really expensive ones. The problem lies here, the non-choice available from design. Giving a Mortar is a first step, one mortar means 1 RM squad less on the field, or coming later, or less ATpower but gives early support option. Captain without free zook is another step, you need to save amo for your zooks so you can't only count on early BARs to do the AI dps, people will need to compensate the zooks delay with fuel unit dps like a M20 or HT. Or not upgrading zooks but early Atgun or Stuart.

The patch is interesting, not what I would have personally done, but it merits a try.
27 Apr 2016, 12:54 PM
#335
avatar of Socrates

Posts: 40

OKW shreks should be locked in MedHQ. This will fix two important things:
1. OKW can't get both (light vehicles + shreks) without backteching. So, no more Luchs covered by volks with shreks.
2. OKW will have both hard and soft counters (251/17 Flak HT and shreks) against light vehicles besides of raketenwerfers in T0.
27 Apr 2016, 17:27 PM
#336
avatar of TheSleep3r

Posts: 670

So today I found out that the tracking vet ability of SU-85 doesnt actually detect infantry as stated in description, but is named Armored Vehicle Detection in the buff area and does exactly that :snfBarton:

also it states it significantly increases sight radius. It does by maybe 5 range or nothing at all :snfBarton: Miragefla pls fix
27 Apr 2016, 17:49 PM
#337
avatar of Marcus2389
Admin Black Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 4555 | Subs: 2

Looks like Relic is delaying the mod.

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/241299/april-27th-balance-preview-mod-release-notes#latest

"Please note, the Balance Preview Mod has been temporarily delayed until further notice. Please refer back to this thread for future updates on it's release." (from Kyle)
28 Apr 2016, 08:58 AM
#338
avatar of IA3 - HH

Posts: 289

you buffed penals because they was weak and useless, ok its good and logical, but also assault grenadiers are weak and useless, why no buff for them ?

grenadiers are still 4 models squad, add retreat point to bunkers or HT

2 MG42 for 2 commanders is boring and is not interesting, instead of one of MGs add an AT infantry
28 Apr 2016, 14:34 PM
#339
avatar of Mathias_Bras

Posts: 83

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2016, 08:02 AMEsxile


Problem with USF blob is you remove what makes rifles being able to blob, ok. What next, how do you balance USF with other factions? If you modify USF Rifle squads stats and upgrades, you're modifying 50% of the faction units and strength. You make them equal or weaker with Grens while more expensive? Or you also modify Grens stats to keep the balance between both units? But if you mod Grens stat, you'll also need to mod Cons stats because they cost the same price and you finish with Tommies because you can't let them that strong.

OKW has no mainline infantry, saying volks are is an error, they're supposed to be the equivalent of Rear Echelon, the guys you send as meat shield or support, not the guy you send to do the dps stuff. So nerfing they DPS isn't an issue balance wise, because OKW has plenty of tools to do specific dps. Today it is an issue from player perspective because volks blob has always be the best way to use the faction.
I'm not saying OKW will not suffer from lacks or being underpowered with those changes, but the problem is how do you want to balance the faction and units if you don't get ride of the volks blob first. How do you know how well works the PUMA if nobody uses it. I can tell you the PUMA is a great under use unit, same as the Flak HT, that a great unit with couple of volks around to act as meatshield.

Now, to come back to USF, Rifle squads are unique combat infantry, no Sturmpioneer, no Obers, no pzgren, no UK superengineer, no Penals(if they get buff as the patch says) and only 2 doctrines providing elite troops, really expensive ones. The problem lies here, the non-choice available from design. Giving a Mortar is a first step, one mortar means 1 RM squad less on the field, or coming later, or less ATpower but gives early support option. Captain without free zook is another step, you need to save amo for your zooks so you can't only count on early BARs to do the AI dps, people will need to compensate the zooks delay with fuel unit dps like a M20 or HT. Or not upgrading zooks but early Atgun or Stuart.

The patch is interesting, not what I would have personally done, but it merits a try.


So, what mainline infantry is OKW supposed to field without a commander? Obers? Obers look great on paper but are lackluster in practice due to timing and cost. They can't vet up due to facing vet 3 squads and high tech units when they hit the field. Volks most certainly are the mainline infantry. But Volks have never been about DPS. They have been about utility. So instead to balance them they nerf their utility and make them about AI DPS. Dumb idea.

If Volks lose their shrecks, then Rifles should loose bazookas. Then you can use armor to deal with them. Kinda like how people complain about not being able to use armor against Volks. Why not just remove all the AT infantry from the game?

Just saying this whole deal with removing the shreck from Volks is a joke. Keep the factions different. Keep the handheld AT on both Rifles and Volks. If a unit is over performing, then make some adjustments. Why not try things like reducing the range on handheld AT? That lets armor kite and rewards flanking/surprise attacks.

I hope this patch dies...
28 Apr 2016, 14:53 PM
#340
avatar of ABlockOfSalt

Posts: 70

They tried that a little bit. They significantly lowered the accuracy of the shrek to make them less likely to alpha strike light vehicles into the ground. The issue persisted because of the sheer number of shreks that were likely to be around.

The issue with that was the volume of shreks. If you reduced them further they were individually unsatisfying and bordering on useless. When firing in a 4+ squad pack they were about right but you'd never use them unless in a pack.

As far as handheld AT the mechanics need to be very carefully fine tuned. Shreks came too early, shut down too many options for allied commanders and were over all just a sort of no brainer.

I would look at Guards as a very well balanced unit. They come in at a good time, have decent combat abilities and are generally useful but not in a blobby/spammy way. I think dissection of what makes Guards balanced is key to making hand-held AT useful, unique and balanced.
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