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russian armor

Another bug & balance list

5 Oct 2015, 19:38 PM
#1
avatar of Cruzz

Posts: 1221 | Subs: 41

If you want me to explain some bit in more detail feel free to ask, mostly just made various things I've noted up over the years into a slightly more readable format so the post is quite light on explanation.

Bugs, wrong values and other inconsistencies


Issues that are clearly oversights, bugs, etc. While some might have balance implications, fixing these is just common sense.

Pathing:


Pathing weights do not function correctly, units do not avoid terrain with movement penalties even in the most obvious cases.

jeep_i and motorcycle_i turnplans have a 0.1 radius turn which causes 360 noscope turns in certain situations. This value is never beneficial for gameplay and should be just removed.

[critical] Vehicles still consider any QUEUED movement order complete within 25(-ish) units

General:


[critical] Many team weapons still have permanent: true on veterancy bonuses applied to the weapon which leads to these bonuses being inherited on recrewing.

[critical] Pretty much any temporary buff will also be converted to permanent on team weapons and vehicles that are decrewed while the buff is ongoing.

[critical] Mines still trigger incorrectly on fast moving targets, resulting in no damage whatsoever to the unit that triggered them

[critical] Vehicles pretty much ignore simbox when both vehicles are moving, resulting in constant phase through.

Vehicle simbox sizes do not seem to be particularly accurate, they should be redone.

Team weapon cover seems to work sporadically at best, the orientation of the cover seems to be wrong.

All wrecks should be destroyable with all weapon types. Let the armor value of the wreck determine how useful small arms are against it.

Prioritize Vehicles option is disabled without feedback to player every time player uses an ability that swaps weapon (zis barrage, su76 barrage, target weak point, etc)

A ton of wrecks are missing wreck values and are thus unsalvageable for soviet tank hunter & brit tac ops salvaging. Wreck values are nonsensical in many cases (USF Ambulance is highest value salvage for munitions in the game, panther wreck is less valuable than a sherman wreck, etc). Numbers shown while salvaging don't really make any sense to the player either.

In particular almost no brew_up wrecks have cost, they can still be salvaged by OKW but not by brits or soviets.

Several wrecks lack the salvageable_object type which makes OKW salvage not work on them (Soviet Sherman, B4)

All vehicle snare abilities should be targetable on neutral (abandoned) vehicles.

Camouflage abilities should be implemented in a consistent manner, right now there are nearly as many different implementations of camouflage as there are units using it and this makes the files very messy.

The hideous amounts of copypasted, inactive unit scripts should be cleaned out. They waste time from everyone involved.

Small_explosive can trigger flame death crits on a lot of infantry.

AEF:


.50 cal hitpoints should be 350, weapon priority -100, target_size 20, cost 100mp and then the crew cost reduced accordingly, to be in line with all other team weapons.

Assault Engineers build soviet caches instead of american ones, which means that rear echelons can't join in on them and vice versa.

Priest Barrage has tp_any instead of tp_position as target, which means clicking on a unit to barrage will make priest try to track that and stop barrage if that unit happens to die. Inconsistent with all other artillery.

USF Recon Commander Forward Observation will stop working permanently on a squad as soon as the "leader" model of the squad gets killed while the buff is active.

Recon paratroopers (paratrooper_squad_support) do not have vehicle_decrew_generic ability so they can't leave vehicles. They have the paratrooper special abilities listed in their abilities but do not get them because the abilities check for the paratrooper weapon package upgrades rather than the weapon slot items.

Major Artillery barrage actual radius is 2.5 units larger than radius shown in UI reticule.

USF mine (infantry company, assault engineers, recon paratroopers) uses TM-35 model instead of M6 model.

British:


British m3 has no maingun destroyed crit

Churchill crocodile is missing the moving scatter multiplier for its main gun.

British infantry have the old 10% death crit at 50% or lower on receiving explosive damage. They shouldn't.

Commandos can reinforce from AEF beacons. They probably shouldn't

Tommies do not have any penalties while constructing. They should have.

Firefly and Comet should have a projectile so they can ground target properly (and then their accuracy values can be made normal again). Ostheer sniper projectile is just as fast these tracer effects so don't see why you skipped on the projectile system.

Tank Commander does not increase vet gain by 20%, it makes the unit worth 20% less EXP when fired upon.

Concentrated Fire Operation can fire into fog of war and has no delay on firing, first round will start firing as soon as smoke drops.

Light vehicle audio is probably set wrong, results in constant "HUNS IN A HALFTRACK" on enemy spotted.

Soviets:


Soviet m5 (regular and lendlease) have no maingun destroyed crit

Soviet 45mm ATgun squad still has a 25% received accuracy penalty on the squad and has added target priority that makes enemy units prefer shooting at it over other targets.

DSHK hitpoints should be 350, weapon priority -100, target size 20 to be in line with all other team weapons. DSHK lacks a weapon_suppression multiplier of 0 while pinned, which makes it suppress while pinned. Crew should be swapped to maxim crew and weapon given 2 popcap cost, rather than the current situation of 1.33 popcap cost crewmembers (which are otherwise identical to maxim crew)

Relief Infantry and Rapid Conscription have inconsistent behaviour and UI feedback as the abilities make you understand that they apply to all infantry but actually won't work on captured team weapons.

B4 population is almost entirely on crew instead of gun. Crew should be swapped to ML20 crew and gun given 10 popcap cost like ML20. B4 target size is 1, should be 20

Partisan camouflage should be enabled in squad, not in entity. Any captured team weapons manned by partisans get cloak right now.

Lend-Lease M5 can reinforce with quad upgrade, it shouldn't.

Ostheer:


German Mechanized (not Assault) commander halftrack grens cost 2 extra popcap for squad for no reason, have +25% range to rifle nade at vet2, and do not have penalties while constructing.

There are unused Brew Up death animations for Ostheer Puma, Panther, Ostheer PIV & Command, none of them have the brew up death crit even though they have a brew-uppable model.

LEFH counter-barrage still only has 6 rounds instead of 10. LEFH vet3 should also increase counter-barrage range

Ostheer Mortar & Mortar HT Barrage UI Reticule radius max is 14 but based on weapon stats should be at most 8.

Brummbar Bunker Buster vet1 ability has high scatter compared to base gun for no apparent reason

Loader Injured critical icon (crit caused only by Ostheer CAS currently) is not removed after crit is gone.

Puma vet3 bonus is an ADDITION of +40 damage, which makes the coaxial MG do 44 damage instead of 4.

Opel blitz truck connects territory even when not set up.

Ostheer mortar smoke weapon lacks rotation values.

Panzerwerfer barrage through artillery officer fires 16 rockets instead of the regular 10.

OKW:


OKW FlakHT gets guaranteed engine damage from small arms penetrations below 50% because small arms can cause the crit but can't cause a no-crit

OKW Elite Armor HEAT rounds should not be using a projectile that is set to be artillery, this causes large accuracy issues.

King Tiger Spearhead has the old 40 range instead of new 45, and has worse scatter and aoe for no good reason

Obersoldaten MP44 upgrade has unused audiolines because of missing "m44" in the weapon slot item speech codes.

HMG34 is missing audio for phosphor rounds because the correct speech code for OKW is "iap", not "pho".

Kubelwagen still has destroy engine and destroy maingun as alternatives to dying rather than at 1-25% health like other vehicles.

Luchs is missing a brew up death crit.

OKW vehicles are the only ones that still have a top gunner killed crit. Either add the gunner crit to everyone else or remove from OKW as well.

More general balance changes and changes


The balance issues here are units and abilities which are either so overperforming or underperforming that they clearly need a fix.

How you want to fix these things is up to debate, I just list my thoughts. But they do all need fixing in some form.

Note: this isn't supposed to be a full list of balance issues. It's just things I consider both easily changed and fairly broken currently.

General:



Changing origin of infantry handheld AT weapons slightly higher would reduce them destroying their own cover without any real issues. Won't help with tall cover, but almost completely fixes with standard stonewalls etc.

Adding slight preferences to turning instead of pivoting and some larger turn radius options would lead to better perceived pathing performance because pivoting is worse than turning in almost any situation

Making territory points (without a cache) passable would improve vehicle pathing notably on more clumped maps.

Flame weapons should not have a target table entry for british emplacement, it makes the anti-building damage get applied three times against brits.

No weapon that has damage_all_in_hold: true should have over 0.5 multiplier in aoe damage far, it just leads to (near) instant wipes in buildings. Either set the boolean to false on weapons like this or change these aoes back to having actual range scaling.

All aoe weapons with a forced death on infantry (USF 240mm, etc) should have it removed and their aoe increased instead to have more consistent behaviour against all targets rather than just wiping infantry at insane ranges and doing nothing to vehicles.

Weapon stats for weaker copies of weapons such as weapon crew guns should be redone to do consistent damage per bullet with slower firing, rather than the current situation where these weapons fire half damage rubber bullets.

Grenade damage reduction on buildings was completely overdone, now buildings tend to be like fort knox against anything except flames and a couple of weapons with weird anti-building stats.

Units should NOT leave a capture circle in order to seek cover.

AEF:


USF Mechanized M3 halftrack stats are on the level of a 0cp scout car, not a midgame halftrack. Raise hitpoints to 320, other changes can be made afterwards if still needed.

57mm base penetration should be better so you don't absolutely have to use jacksons to counter any medium to heavy vehicles.

Greyhound main gun should be better and canister should have some kind of useful side-effect now that it basically kills nothing. Can come later if needed to balance out.

Bulldozer should have the same reduced moving scatter penalty as regular sherman.

Vehicle crew crit repair should take longer and cost more

Pack Howitzer suppression is broken and should be removed.

USF HQ should have larger reinforce radius, the outer ring keeps units so far out that the perceived reinforce radius of the base is really tiny currently.

Easy Eight currently requires LESS experience to vet than a regular Sherman. That shouldn't be true.

Easy Eight still lacks the increased scatter while moving that every other tank in the game has.

Recon paratrooper drop should give them the same weapon layouts as regular paratroopers with upgrades (currently missing 1 gun each), and the atgun should drop crewed.


British:


British Artillery Cover should duration should be shorter (70 --> 50 seconds?) and radius lowered (60 --> 50).

Centaur and Cromwell are target_size 18, they should be 22 to be in line with other comparable vehicles.
A glider will instantly destroy any caches its intersects with while landing. Friendly or enemy, doesn't matter. Probably shouldn't.

Second base building howitzer should be facing towards the center of the map

Sapper heavy squad upgrade should cost munitions.

Commandos are underpriced at 70mp, raise to atleast 76mp. Officer is underpriced at 75mp, should be 100mp to be in line with other officers. Also officer reinforce time is 4 seconds, should be 14 to be in line. Call-in costs are fine, it's just these squads should cost more to reinforce.

Commandos and Airlanding officer currently have an additional *0.25 modifier to received accuracy on retreat at vet3. Seems over the top to say the least.

Commando Stens should not have 26 rate of fire, it's both completely unrealistic and makes their DPS against all targets including soft vehicles ridiculous. Halve and increase other stats to compensate partly (they could use a DPS nerf overall even with the other nerfs)

Commando camouflage for 3 seconds out of cover is over the top, should be 1 second or less.

Commando grenade (gammon bomb medium) should not have such a massive damage increase over other grenade abilities

Engineer Stens should not have 26 rate of fire, halve rate of fire and double damage per bullet (to match commando sten damage per bullet).

Tommies should not have 0.25 moving accuracy, raise it to atleast 0.35 to make them still worse than any other mainline infantry but atleast remotely credible while moving.

Centaur should not have focus fire: false, centaur should not have 1 damage multiplier against heavy cover. Probably needs other adjustments too.

British strafe abilities have the old 60 radius of plane radius, should be 50. Rockets should not target non-vehicles, currently they'll just pick any hostile target if no vehicle around.

PIAT should not be on artillery calculation.

British tank commander should not give +20 to camouflage detection radius, it makes no sense for medium tanks to be the best sniper hunters in the game.

British atgun should not have a 50% accuracy bonus against vehicles, or all other atguns should get it as well.

AEC should have 50 range like Puma. AEC thread shot second shot should not require first one to hit, or they should have increased accuracy.

British Sniper should get the same 0.6* accuracy multiplier against retreaters as soviet and ostheer one as well as reduced accuracy against garrisons.

The Vickers K upgrade on the bren carrier has pathetic damage output and requires munitions every time you want to try suppress something. It either needs way better damage output at all times or should function like the kubel with the ability providing temporary suppression on the move. Also ability target cursor is pointless as it's a buff rather than a targeted ability.

Churchill crew grenades should not have a full 120 damage in their entire radius

Commando commander Assault should affect all infantry, not just Tommies, like Valiant Assault does with the exact same bonuses & cost.

Vanguard Officer Glider should not be able to produce commandos cheaper than the Commando commander call-in, if at all.

Vanguard Officer Charge should only affect own units rather than allied and the received accuracy buff (-75%) needs to be ATLEAST halved. Even with it halved it'll still be the strongest buff in the game...

Tulips should do less damage (but potentially have a side effect like vision slit critical?) and Firefly should have faster turret rotation and reload.

Valentine should come at 8 cps instead of 9, and its artillery barrage ability should use both sextons and the base howitzers instead of just sextons.

Sexton should be more comparable to a Priest in performance

Regular churchill should have a max of 1280hp and the specialist versions 1040. Front armor value can be increased to compensate if required, armor value can be played around but high HP can't.

Command Vehicle recon plane should cost munitions to call in.

Soviets:


T34 Ram should always stun, not just on deflect

Soviet industry manpower penalty should be reduced

Penal SVTs should have better accuracy on the move like other semi-auto rifles and to differentiate them a bit more from Cons

KV-2 should gain significant buffs to put it more in line with other heavies in the game, right now it's the worst at everything while being the most expensive.

ML-20 aoe damage modifiers should be reverted, right now it's weaker than a LEFH at all distances.

DSHK armor piercing rounds should add a flat amount of penetration like MG42 ones, not multiply the very low base penetration. Or alternatively base penetration should just be increased to make the weapon actually feel like a large caliber...


Ostheer:


Elite Troops stun grenades should not stop retreat or exit from building. (Also applies to Sturmpioneer vet grenades)

Brummbar should have better mid and far aoe damage values to make it a more efficient anti-infantry unit for its large cost.

Sniper vet1 explosive round should not have guaranteed accuracy, it just makes people use it for a guaranteed wipes on retreating squads

Medkits should be able to do 80hp of healing over the duration rather than the current 40.

Puma stats should be normalized between Ostheer and OKW, there's no good reason why they have such different speed etc.

OKW:


OKW buildable flaks should be reworked, they're utterly useless as is

Elite Armor commander barrage should be triggerable from a lot farther away, currently only 35 range.

ISG suppression is broken and should be removed.

FlakHT's aoe size should be increased again, the accuracy change left the unit with extremely weak damage output compared to before except against buildings (due to damage_all_in_hold)
5 Oct 2015, 19:43 PM
#2
avatar of Cruzz

Posts: 1221 | Subs: 41

Added on 5.10:

Changing origin of infantry handheld AT weapons slightly higher would reduce them destroying their own cover without any real issues. Won't help with tall cover, but almost completely fixes with standard stonewalls etc.

A glider will instantly destroy any caches its intersects with while landing. Friendly or enemy, doesn't matter. Probably shouldn't.

Added on 6.10:

German Mechanized (not Assault) commander halftrack grens cost 2 extra popcap for squad for no reason, have +25% range to rifle nade at vet2, and do not have penalties while constructing.

Soviet 45mm ATgun squad still has a 25% received accuracy penalty on the squad and has added target priority that makes enemy units prefer shooting at it over other targets.

DSHK lacks a weapon_suppression multiplier of 0 while pinned, which makes it suppress while pinned

Swap dshk crew to maxim crew, add +2 pop cost to dshk team weapon. Currently crew is same as maxim but 1.33 pop instead of 1
Swap b4 crew to ml-20, add +10 pop cost to b4 team weapon. Currently crew is 3 cost while ml20 is 1 cost crew, b4 gun 0 cost ml20 11.

B4 target size is 1, should be 20

Added on 7.10:

Soviet m5 (regular and lendlease) have no maingun destroyed crit

British m3 has no maingun destroyed crit

OKW vehicles are the only ones that still have a top gunner killed crit. Either add the gunner crit to everyone else or remove from OKW as well.

Luchs is missing a brew up death crit

Kubelwagen still has destroy engine and destroy maingun as alternatives to dying rather than at 1-25% health like other vehicles.

Balance:

British Artillery Cover should duration should be shorter (70 --> 50 seconds?) and radius lowered (60 --> 50).

Centaur and Cromwell are target_size 18, they should be 22 to be in line with other comparable vehicles.
5 Oct 2015, 19:46 PM
#3
avatar of Von Kluge
Patrion 14

Posts: 3548 | Subs: 2

Sent this thread to Kyle, thanks doctor salt ... Crooz :snfPeter:
5 Oct 2015, 19:50 PM
#4
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2487 | Subs: 21

Obviously, these are all prime features. :foreveralone:
5 Oct 2015, 19:53 PM
#5
avatar of Kubelecer

Posts: 403

relic pls

also maybe reverting the pack/isg changes should be looked at.

Both of factions that have it have no early viable suppression platform. Kubel sucks beyond a certain point and you need to go lt for a hmg.

The units were fine before the suppression change
Hux
5 Oct 2015, 19:54 PM
#6
avatar of Hux
Patrion 14

Posts: 505

a balance preview mod of these + tournament = <444>3
5 Oct 2015, 19:59 PM
#7
avatar of AngryKitten465

Posts: 473

Permanently Banned
Oh god relic, why?

"British atgun should not have a 50% accuracy bonus against vehicles, or all other atguns should get it as well."
5 Oct 2015, 20:02 PM
#8
avatar of capiqua
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 985 | Subs: 2

UC icon on minimap is a bug or an improvement?

edit:
Icon partisan camo used on portrait sniper OST
5 Oct 2015, 20:10 PM
#9
avatar of Looney
Patrion 14

Posts: 444

Hail Cruzzi! Good job, great thread.
5 Oct 2015, 20:12 PM
#10
avatar of Keaper!
Donator 11

Posts: 135

+1000, Relic give this man a job.
5 Oct 2015, 20:18 PM
#11
avatar of Leodot

Posts: 254

Damn, that`s amazing and frustrating all in all.

Good job!! Cruzz ---> Hero of the Day!

Bad job!!! Relic
5 Oct 2015, 20:22 PM
#12
5 Oct 2015, 21:07 PM
#13
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1

I like how every balance suggestion is backed up by facts, ass always. Thank again Cruzz.
5 Oct 2015, 21:11 PM
#14
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

To back Cruzz up here. A LOT of the current problems in the game come from Relic not paying attention when they are coding and or just out right copy pasting old or unused unit files from the old Armies to make Brits. This results in blatantly OP or broken things that never made it into the game for a reason being added to Brits because ???.

Theres also massive inconsistency in various values. With the Cromwell, Comet, Church, ect. All having extremely good moving accuracy (.75 to be exact) while all having lower scatter than almost all other tanks resulting in them being insanely good at chasing and wiping squads or killing tanks on the move.

5 Oct 2015, 21:24 PM
#15
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1

ok they want to sell products, im fine with that. but man, they dont even try to hide it, even in the codes :D
5 Oct 2015, 21:32 PM
#16
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

Er... One thing ive noticed that may be involved with target priority...

Obviously Cromwell and Comet smoke shell and Churchill/Comet nades are nice (and that churchill grenade is a lot randomly better than comet, or as mentioned in OP) - but when these abilities are used around enemies, often the unit doesnt do what its told to do and freaks out from an anxiety attack. Comets/cromwells just aim their turrets halfway from their target and just sit there. The grenades sometimes just dont activate as well, even though the ability is "in effect". Slightly annoying when im using smoke shell and the tank doesnt care about the at gun shooting at it when its supposed to stop that by smoking it. And sometimes giving it a move command makes it work - spamming the command usually works...

And of course, everything mentioned in the OP would make the game much better.

Please Relic. Nearly everyone likes Cruzz for a reason.
5 Oct 2015, 21:39 PM
#17
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Oct 2015, 19:38 PMCruzz
  • British infantry have the old 10% death crit at 50% or lower on receiving explosive damage. They shouldn't.

  • Greyhound main gun should be better and canister should have some kind of useful side-effect now that it basically kills nothing. Can come later if needed to balance out.

  • Also officer reinforce time is 4 seconds, should be 14 to be in line.

  • Commando grenade (gammon bomb medium) should not have such a massive damage increase over other grenade abilities

  • Churchill crew grenades should not have a full 120 damage in their entire radius

  • Commando commander Assault should affect all infantry, not just Tommies, like Valiant Assault does with the exact same bonuses & cost.

  • Penal SVTs should have better accuracy on the move like other semi-auto rifles and to differentiate them a bit more from Cons

  • Brummbar should have better mid and far aoe damage values to make it a more efficient anti-infantry unit for its large cost.

  • Elite Armor commander barrage should be triggerable from a lot farther away, currently only 35 range.


I agree with just about everything on this list, but I have some comments:

  • Reminds me of when Obersoldaten released with Armour instead of Received Accuracy. Just Relic using outdated builds to make new things again...

  • They should give the Greyhound the T-70's gun so it's functionally unique and useful. Remove Canister Shot because it was cheese in CoH1 and it's cheese now. I know Cruzz doesn't like this because it's the same gun as the Stuart, so he wants them to use the same file, but some things should be made different for balance sake. A weaker call-in Stuart with cheese shot isn't very unique or useful, especially if you intend to go Captain.

  • It'd be nice if they could make Officers the lowest priority somehow, so that they die last.

  • I would rather them bring other heavy grenades up to par. The laughable Bundle Grenade comes to mind...

  • Why the hell does a Tank have the best Grenade in the game exactly?

  • Isn't Valiant Assault broken? I remember testing it repeatedly and the results with / without were always the same. If the code was copy+pasted does that mean Assault is broken too?

  • I think Penals fire faster on the move while Riflemen fire slower on the move, so that should balance it out in theory.

  • Brummbar needs a faster shell speed and a lower cost, I think it'd be great then.

  • Elite Armor commander in general feels inferior to the British counterparts, despite being doctrinal and replacing a very important upgrade).


Also something Cruzz missed:

  • [critical] Penal Satchel Charge is categorized as small_explosive, and no longer has the ability to damage buildings at all. This makes their satchel charge mostly useless, and thus one of the main reasons to get Penals is nullified.
5 Oct 2015, 21:41 PM
#18
avatar of Jadame!

Posts: 1122

Cruzz probably knows game better then Relic does, lol.

Great stuff as always, thanks for effort.
5 Oct 2015, 21:44 PM
#19
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

You forgot BOYS AT rifles having accuracy of pre AI PTRS buff, which means they are huge downgrade instead of upgrade/worth calling in the squad.
5 Oct 2015, 21:45 PM
#20
avatar of crash

Posts: 52

+1000, Relic give this man a job.


no, they will ruin him
let's crowdfund him to makes the greatest rts known to mankind :bananadance::bananadance:
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