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WEHRMACHT=RUBBISH

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12 Mar 2015, 01:38 AM
#161
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2015, 01:36 AMVuther

That reminds me, the poor unknowing bastard playing Soviet T1->T3 against OKW is entirely doomed when the Schwerer sets down.

If only the SU-76( :foreveralone: )'s barrage was actually good.


T3 in any scenario unless you have dominate map control is a baaaad idea. T1 makes for an excellent early game, if micro intensive with snipers.

Also the SU-76 isn't in T3 :foreveralone:
12 Mar 2015, 02:25 AM
#162
avatar of van Voort
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3505 | Subs: 2


Thats not the point, but when it comes to balancing issues, 1v1 should absolutely take priority over any other gamemode. Why? Because it does not only require the most skill


hahahahahahahahahahahahahah
12 Mar 2015, 02:30 AM
#163
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225



hahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Your thoughtful contribution is duly noted.
Is this forum getting more infantile by the second?
12 Mar 2015, 03:30 AM
#164
avatar of van Voort
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3505 | Subs: 2

It's late at night and I'm tired.

However I don't accept your premise.


I understand that 1v1 is the method of choice for determining player skill, not least because individual contribution can be measured and it is the method of choice for tournaments - not least because coordinating team games for that is nigh impossible

I am even willing to accept that the most skilled players play 1v1, and at least in part for the above reasons

I am not willing to accept that 1v1 requires more or less skill than any other mode
12 Mar 2015, 03:52 AM
#165
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

All the modes require different skill sets, for example, team games require coordination, a team with coordination will always beat a team without!
12 Mar 2015, 04:46 AM
#166
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1067

I thought the title of this thread was WEHRMACHT=RUBBISH :/
12 Mar 2015, 05:04 AM
#167
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1135 | Subs: 1

I got really lazy so i copied this from the 5 man gren thread since it fits better here.

I don't think grens are the problem. Ostheer was built as a faction centered around combined arms and team weapons. On that front, the ostheer mortar is the best nondoctrinal option in the game, and the Pak-40 is the best mobile AT gun. The only thing that ostheer really needs in my opinion is a suppression boost to the mg42 and incendiary rounds at vet 0 for 20 mu. This way, ostheer has a valid counter to american early vehicles without having to fast tech and keep up. This in turn would allow ostheer to spend more of their early mp on squads instead of on teching.

The other thing that ostheer needs is an armor/hp buff to the 221 that would allow it to stand a little bit more of a chance against small arms, allowing it to be a solid counter to snipers.

One final change that is needed for ostheer is not directly an ostheer problem. I think that the Jackson should get a higher penetration value, lower damage (160), and maybe a slighly higher ROF. This way ostheer t3 is no longer hardcountered by jacksons, and medium counter play will become easier to pull off.

These are of course just my ideas, i'm sure others have better ones.
12 Mar 2015, 07:49 AM
#168
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

Grens probably don't need five men,but wehrmacht earlygame needs significant changes.And unit one shotting needs to go...if they can't fix spacing then pzgrens should get 5 men as they can't be spammed and are squishy 1 shot shit.
12 Mar 2015, 07:53 AM
#169
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 14602 | Subs: 7



Why should a 320 MP assault engineer squad have 170 MP repairs?

For the same reason why 280 mp assault engineer squad have it?
12 Mar 2015, 08:10 AM
#170
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



The Schwer was designed to be how it us because T3 is incredibly important for OKW, if you removed the good units inside of it I don't think people would give a shit about nerfing it.

EDIT: and Yeah the Rackten being good would go a long way towards make Shrek's not nearly as needed as they are now.



So I'm right? Okay.


Garden me... T3 was designed like that, because OKW was getting 200% income from 3 potions where trucks were converted. This feature no longer exists in game.

It can kill HE Sherman, it's equal to T34/76 and can melt SU-76.

What's more, COH is about capping points. With battle is on the right side, you send 1-2 squads to cap left side. But there you find T3 and the whole capping system is dead.




Why should a 320 MP assault engineer squad have 170 MP repairs?


Enginners? Really? Cause when I said that vetted Engis cannot have better vet than pure combat Paras, you said they are not engis.
And they should cause they have insane DPS and utility in the early game.

Stuka needs health nerf.

Kubel on maps like Minsk Pocket is OP like hell when microed well.
It forces you to go for M3 or M20.
How the garden T0 cheapet unit can force to tier? :snfPeter:
12 Mar 2015, 10:15 AM
#171
avatar of Trubbbel

Posts: 677

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2015, 15:58 PMKatitof
As the Einstain(not sure) said, if you can't explain something simply, you just don't understand it well enough.


Truth! In Sweden we have a saying that goes "Clouded speech comes from clouded thinking" :)
12 Mar 2015, 11:11 AM
#172
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2016 | Subs: 1

I would love to see Volks veterancy bonuses toned down. -49% received accuracy and +60% accuracy is neither fair or fun.
12 Mar 2015, 11:11 AM
#173
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1128

The concept of giving OKW a Panther in mid-game, which is a late-game and end of tech vehicle for Wehr, was bad to begin with.

If you touch the performance of the Panther, OKW will get an adequate tank, Wehr will have expensive and useless garbage for late-game (see last patch).

As it stands the Panther is Wehrs only counter to M36s and IS-2s late game, as Paks and Schrecks get wiped by the IS-2s gun and reliably bounce off the armor. (Tigers, Elefant etc. are doctrinal.)

Nerfing the Panther for Wehr would seriously cripple their late game.



I hope for:

- more teching, less call ins
- useful Panzerwerfers
- useful MGs (all factions)
- a cost efficient Flamer HT
- Su-76 buffs
- an adjustment for Jacksons, more penetration, less damage = less RNG
- P47 nerf
12 Mar 2015, 11:17 AM
#174
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2015, 11:11 AMButcher
The concept of giving OKW a Panther in mid-game, which is a late-game and end of tech vehicle for Wehr, was bad to begin with.

If you touch the performance of the Panther, OKW will get an adequate tank, Wehr will have expensive and useless garbage for late-game (see last patch).

As it stands the Panther is Wehrs only counter to M36s and IS-2s late game, as Paks and Schrecks get wiped by the IS-2s gun and reliably bounce off the armor. (Tigers, Elefant etc. are doctrinal.)

Nerfing the Panther for Wehr would seriously cripple their late game.



I hope for:

- more teching, less call ins
- useful Panzerwerfers
- useful MGs (all factions)
- a cost efficient Flamer HT
- Su-76 buffs
- an adjustment for Jacksons, more penetration, less damage = less RNG
- P47 nerf


1. I belive OKW and OST Panthers have separated files so changing OKW wont touch OST.
2. That's why OKW should get Stug III instead of Luchs or something else. Pure mid-game unit which can help to survive.
3. I dont get your point about doctrinal Tiger or Ele... IS2 is doctrinal as well and you want to counter it with stock units?

How often do you see Panther from OST player? 2/20? Cause in 1v1 it's like 1/40 games.
12 Mar 2015, 11:27 AM
#175
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1128

1. I belive OKW and OST Panthers have separated files so changing OKW wont touch OST.
I know that. But even if they are different Ausf. A and G, their differences are marginal (slightly better gun-mantle and side armor on the G version, different engine). Seeing big performance differences would be weird. Also currently OKW has the G version/ the better version in the game-files.


3. I dont get your point about doctrinal Tiger or Ele... IS2 is doctrinal as well and you want to counter it with stock units?
Soviet, USA, OKW have the SU-85, Jackson, Jagdpanzer IV with 60 range each to handle heavy tanks. Wehr doesn´t have a 60 range AT vehicle. If you go Wehr and don´t go for a Tiger/ Elefant doctrine, you have the Panther. Touch the Panther and you will see increased call-in meta.
12 Mar 2015, 11:31 AM
#176
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2016 | Subs: 1

It's late at night and I'm tired.

However I don't accept your premise.


I understand that 1v1 is the method of choice for determining player skill, not least because individual contribution can be measured and it is the method of choice for tournaments - not least because coordinating team games for that is nigh impossible

I am even willing to accept that the most skilled players play 1v1, and at least in part for the above reasons

I am not willing to accept that 1v1 requires more or less skill than any other mode


4v4 scenario - i have my side or my "lane". I get 4 - 5 units. I literally can do whatever i want. T0 into T3 or T4 works as Ostheer in large teamgames. I pulled it off many many times.
In 4v4 you only really need to stall for lategame stuff... which is quite easy in larger teamgames. You only have to take care of like 3 or 4 sectors and either defend or attack it. You can pick whatever commander you want. Strategic thinking like timing units or foreseeing your opponents strategy doesnt really exist, because it doesnt matter.

1v1 scenario - I have the whole map to take care of. I need to have a balanced army to not get countered easily. I dont have anyone to back me up. I need to cap while i fight, pull off tactical maneuvers, time units well, foresee your opponents strategy and try to suprise your opponent. Everything at the same time. You need to pick a commander that suits your gameplan. You need significantly better micro skills.

Honestly, there is a reason why the best players play 1v1.
12 Mar 2015, 15:35 PM
#177
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2015, 07:53 AMKatitof

For the same reason why 280 mp assault engineer squad have it?


Ass Engies repair faster than regular engineers. So no, they don't have 170 MP repairs. And neither should Assault Pioneers.



Garden me... T3 was designed like that, because OKW was getting 200% income from 3 potions where trucks were converted. This feature no longer exists in game.

It can kill HE Sherman, it's equal to T34/76 and can melt SU-76.

What's more, COH is about capping points. With battle is on the right side, you send 1-2 squads to cap left side. But there you find T3 and the whole capping system is dead.


They kept the Flak Gun on T3 (And they actually nerfed it's pen a few patches ago) because it's the most important OKW building and without it you can't get access to your most powerful units.

Placing it on a cut off or fuel point allows you to spread your forces and engage the enemy while keeping a reliable fuel income, which is vital for OKW more than any faction due to the fact OKW has fuel prices as high as any other faction, but lowered income.

While at the start of the game you might not feel the pressure, later on if you haven't had fuel for a while you will just get pistol whipped when you have 1 Panther or none and your facing off against 2 shermans or some Scotts.



Enginners? Really? Cause when I said that vetted Engis cannot have better vet than pure combat Paras, you said they are not engis.
And they should cause they have insane DPS and utility in the early game.

Stuka needs health nerf.

Kubel on maps like Minsk Pocket is OP like hell when microed well.
It forces you to go for M3 or M20.
How the garden T0 cheapet unit can force to tier? :snfPeter:


Sturms are effective because they are expensive to build and expensive to reinforce, and they wipe easy thanks for being a 4 man squad. They are seriously not an issue, if you need faster repairs as soviets make a second engineer, trust me it's quite good. I always 2 engineers so I can spam demo's/mines faster anyway.



1. I belive OKW and OST Panthers have separated files so changing OKW wont touch OST.
2. That's why OKW should get Stug III instead of Luchs or something else. Pure mid-game unit which can help to survive.
3. I dont get your point about doctrinal Tiger or Ele... IS2 is doctrinal as well and you want to counter it with stock units?

How often do you see Panther from OST player? 2/20? Cause in 1v1 it's like 1/40 games.


Nerfing the fuck out of the OKW Panther isn't going to fix anything, and nor is replacing the Luchs (which is a good tank) with a piece of shit like the StuG III Ausf G going to make anything better for anyone.

If you make the Panther shit people are just going to spam Shreks harder, if you get rid of the Luch's people are going to spam Obers harder.

This isn't a game were people will make subpar units just so you can roll them over because ~reasons~.
12 Mar 2015, 15:52 PM
#178
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



Nerfed penetration? Try solo it with Sherman HE, T34/76 or SU76 without ground attack.

How 40-40-80 fuel price for teching is same like for any other faction?

If it's so important building, why everyone builds it so far away from the base?

Flak base has nothing to do with defending your fuel. It had to do this when OKW income was 33% and 200% from point with trucks. Now it's different but the flak is still here denying everything CoH2 is all about.

How faction which can get Jadgpanzer around 9-11min in 1v1 has problems with fuel?
Or 16min Panther?
Or Puma+Jadgpanzer around 16min.

OKW has so many call-in infantry thet they don't need Obers in every single game.

I love when you skip some parts of posts many many times, like here for example.

SP as engi...
Schwerer as basebulding made for a purpose that does not longer exist...
Negating capping which CoH2 is all about...

Oh, and AssEngi repairs excatly same time like RE so dont say anything about game mechanic cause it's not your first flop.
12 Mar 2015, 16:06 PM
#179
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 14602 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2015, 11:27 AMButcher

Soviet, USA, OKW have the SU-85, Jackson, Jagdpanzer IV with 60 range each to handle heavy tanks. Wehr doesn´t have a 60 range AT vehicle. If you go Wehr and don´t go for a Tiger/ Elefant doctrine, you have the Panther. Touch the Panther and you will see increased call-in meta.

Teller mines, TWP on PaKs, even on StuG-G and no, IS-2 doesn't reliably wipe infantry or PaKs, out of all tanks only T34 is worse against infantry then IS-2.

All factions use different means to fight off heavy armor, 3 of them have 60 range TDs, 3 of them have potent AT guns, 3 of them have handheld AT that works more or less and so on.

Raw firepower isn't the only way to deal with heavies, which every soviet player can tell you from the first day of CoH2 and ost definitely does not lack in variety of non doctrinal options to deal with heavies.

And who talks anything about ost panther?
If anything, OKW one arrives way too fast.
12 Mar 2015, 16:26 PM
#180
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Nerfed penetration? Try solo it with Sherman HE, T34/76 or SU76 without ground attack.

How 40-40-80 fuel price for teching is same like for any other faction?

If it's so important building, why everyone builds it so far away from the base?

Flak base has nothing to do with defending your fuel. It had to do this when OKW income was 33% and 200% from point with trucks. Now it's different but the flak is still here denying everything CoH2 is all about.

How faction which can get Jadgpanzer around 9-11min in 1v1 has problems with fuel?
Or 16min Panther?
Or Puma+Jadgpanzer around 16min.

OKW has so many call-in infantry thet they don't need Obers in every single game.

I love when you skip some parts of posts many many times, like here for example.

SP as engi...
Schwerer as basebulding made for a purpose that does not longer exist...
Negating capping which CoH2 is all about...

Oh, and AssEngi repairs excatly same time like RE so dont say anything about game mechanic cause it's not your first flop.


They did nerf the penetration and just saying they didn't doesn't make it true. It used to be that you could kill a sherman fairly quickly, but it was nerfed to were you could do damage and then back out, repair, and come in and do damage again.

See, the problem with you Is I don't think you actually know what you want, you want the Schwer removed so OKW can't lock down an fuel or a cut off (claiming that such a need is out dated), but then you want to get rid of the units in the Schwer that people want like the luchs and panther.

The timing you also bring out in your posts is also insane, because you assume a perfect scenario in timing, and not to mention the fact that a Jadgpanzer + Puma is such an insandely retarded combination that it blows my mind you think because you can do it then everything for OKW would be peaches and cream if they had no fuel or Schwer.

And I can't actually look up the repair time on Ass Engines versus RE's (and if you do know were I can find said repair times that would be wonderful).

If anything, OKW one arrives way too fast.


If your opponent rushes a Panther he's not going to be able to do shit about your infantry, so go hog wild with a blob supported by AT guns. At max fuel income at 23 fuel it takes 11 minutes to get a Schwer + Panther and that's assume absolutely optimal conditions.

EDIT: And if you think your magically going to stop a blob with Fuss or Jaegar well, your in for a nasty surprise.
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