Login

russian armor

Testing various SMG units

27 Oct 2022, 16:14 PM
#21
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 599


Values for highly accurate weapons and vetted squads are fairly artificial anyway due to the aforementioned accuracy cap. E.g. the PPSh has a close range accuracy of 0.8. Combine that with the +40% accuracy modifier of Shock troops and you're technically at 1.12. This value will be capped at 1, meaning the calculated DPS gain will only be 25% instead of the promised 40%. But that's not what you will see in game. Your vet3 Shock will likely fight a vet3 Volks or something. The lower RA of the targeted squad will usually push the overall accuracy below 1 (to 1.12x0.77 = 0.86 in our example), which will not be capped and mean that the veterancy accuracy bonuses have the effect that they are intended to have.
Against a newly build Volksgrenadier, the calculated value would be true, but when comparing vetted units, they might not reflect the game properly.


A couple thoughts based off what you said, please correct me where I am wrong. (Mainly about SMG units)

Serelia data is fairly pointless even if it was 100% correct in a balance discussion as it uses a target size of 1 despite RA being the 2nd most important value. Hopefully, for COH3 we get a version that lets us test vs different target sizes.

Soviet units in general scale better with regards to RA than USF/UKF. Across the board most Soviet units get 40% or more ACC with VET compared to the 30% or less USF/UKF get. Normally the argument would be that USF and UKF start with better based stats which would take this into account.

For example Rangers start off great with their 4 Thompsons and great RA of .73 which was made apparent when I tested them against AssG and won everytime. However with VET, AssG RA outscales Ranger Acc and AssG Acc outscales Ranger RA bonus leading to a situation where they perform a lot more similarly then expected. As Axis elites usually get larger RA bonus than 25% this would mean Rangers(and Paras) perform better against mainlines unless Paras use Tactical advance.

Penal Acc bonus may not increase max damage but would make them the most consistent performer against axis Elites as Penals could brute force past Axis great RA.

This also means anything less than 10% Target size buff against most Soviet PPSH is pointless which is why most OST players skip G43 upgrade in short range maps. At VET3, the Gren would receive the same amount of damage from a VET3 Shock/PPSH Con/PPSH Partisan or Penal which makes it a fairly lack luster upgrade vs LMG.

On the flip side, the damage reduction removal was a much larger nerf to Rangers than was advertised as no matter what their is a CAP on the damage certain weapons can do per second as seen with Gren example.
27 Oct 2022, 20:34 PM
#22
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1295


On the flip side, the damage reduction removal was a much larger nerf to Rangers than was advertised as no matter what their is a CAP on the damage certain weapons can do per second as seen with Gren example.


Maybe this is being a little anal, but I wouldn't call that a cap on damage, per se. More of a squad-wide DPS limiter if anything. It's a cap to *accuracy*, after all. 80 HP, that's your damage cap, since the LMG burst ends when the model dies. At least for Grens MG42 that is.
27 Oct 2022, 21:21 PM
#23
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 599



Maybe this is being a little anal, but I wouldn't call that a cap on damage, per se. More of a squad-wide DPS limiter if anything. It's a cap to *accuracy*, after all. 80 HP, that's your damage cap, since the LMG burst ends when the model dies. At least for Grens MG42 that is.


Not sure best way to say it, but doesn’t damage reduction remove a lot of RNG and just CAP the damage put out.

For arguments sake we use the vet 3 PPSH damage of 16 DPS. As the Gren has a target size of 1, it would normally receive all 16 DPS. But with the Vet3 damage reduction the PPSH would do a maximum damage of 12.8. No boost from say Mother Russia would increase that damage. However, it is possible for Gren to reduce damage taken with aura such as command tank and or air dropped medical supplies. Again, assuming I am understanding it right.
27 Oct 2022, 23:29 PM
#24
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1295



Not sure best way to say it, but doesn’t damage reduction remove a lot of RNG and just CAP the damage put out.

For arguments sake we use the vet 3 PPSH damage of 16 DPS. As the Gren has a target size of 1, it would normally receive all 16 DPS. But with the Vet3 damage reduction the PPSH would do a maximum damage of 12.8. No boost from say Mother Russia would increase that damage. However, it is possible for Gren to reduce damage taken with aura such as command tank and or air dropped medical supplies. Again, assuming I am understanding it right.


I think we're not really on the same page as far as what the meaning of "capping" is, although I think we pretty much agree eith everything else.

I was just saying that I don't think that "cap" is the right word because while it's accurate for burst damage (grenades and other explosions that have a set amount of damage when they hit a squad & will be reduced by the damage reduction), for sustained damage like squad v. squad it's more of a "dampener" to damage than a "cap".
28 Oct 2022, 00:46 AM
#25
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 599



I think we're not really on the same page as far as what the meaning of "capping" is, although I think we pretty much agree eith everything else.

I was just saying that I don't think that "cap" is the right word because while it's accurate for burst damage (grenades and other explosions that have a set amount of damage when they hit a squad & will be reduced by the damage reduction), for sustained damage like squad v. squad it's more of a "dampener" to damage than a "cap".


Your right, for most cases it would just work as a dampener. However I am hyper focusing on highly accurate weapons(Vetted PPSH, Para Carbine, Penal SVT...). Every weapon should have a maximum damage they can do once you hit an accuracy of 1 if the target has a size of 1 which Grens do. AT that point the damage modifier becomes a CAP, again using the PPSh example as it is most relevant, each gun would get capped at 12.8 DPS and there is no way to increase that damage.

If the above is correct, making damage reduction at various levels a VET bonus would have been a better way to balance all units. This would remove a lot of RNG from tank shots/120mm mortar/howi killing an entire squad in one hit giving a chance for counter play(SMASHING RETREAT)

Once say Penals/Shocks get vetted isn't most if not all of the bonus from Mother Russia pointless aside from the rec acc?(Same for other highly accurate weapons for other factions)

Also similar but not completely related, this could also be why OST has such issues with Pathfinders. As the scoped carbine is fairly accurate and Grens have a target size of 1, the shots have a great chance of landing and since they have sniper crit once the threshold is passed it partially negates the purpose of the Gren damage reduction.

28 Oct 2022, 10:51 AM
#26
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772



A couple thoughts based off what you said, please correct me where I am wrong. (Mainly about SMG units)

Serelia data is fairly pointless even if it was 100% correct in a balance discussion as it uses a target size of 1 despite RA being the 2nd most important value. Hopefully, for COH3 we get a version that lets us test vs different target sizes.

Honestly, I don't see any problem with that. 0.8 RA means that the shots that passed the accuracy roll have a 20% chance to miss. Just multiply the DPS by RA and you get your DPS. However, a resource that compares different units with different setups would be great.
28 Oct 2022, 11:16 AM
#27
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Your right, for most cases it would just work as a dampener. However I am hyper focusing on highly accurate weapons(Vetted PPSH, Para Carbine, Penal SVT...).


PPSh is anything but a "highly accurate weapon" with far accuracy of 0.12



Every weapon should have a maximum damage they can do once you hit an accuracy of 1 if the target has a size of 1 which Grens do. AT that point the damage modifier becomes a CAP, again using the PPSh example as it is most relevant, each gun would get capped at 12.8 DPS and there is no way to increase that damage.

Accuracy, damage reduction, armor all have similar effects in the long run because in most small amrs fights the weapon do not fire with 100% accuracy.


If the above is correct, making damage reduction at various levels a VET bonus would have been a better way to balance all units. This would remove a lot of RNG from tank shots/120mm mortar/howi killing an entire squad in one hit giving a chance for counter play(SMASHING RETREAT)

Explosive weapons work different than small arms, since the accuracy of most of these weapon is too low to have a significant impact.

But yes damage reduction would work to protect infatry from these and that is why Grenadiers get it.

On the other hand neither the 120mm mortar nor the Pak howitzer do 80 so they can not kill entities with one shot.

The Game is RNG based so there is little wrong with RNG in general.



Once say Penals/Shocks get vetted isn't most if not all of the bonus from Mother Russia pointless aside from the rec acc?(Same for other highly accurate weapons for other factions)

1) depends on range
2) depends on enemy being in cover or not.


Also similar but not completely related, this could also be why OST has such issues with Pathfinders. As the scoped carbine is fairly accurate and Grens have a target size of 1, the shots have a great chance of landing and since they have sniper crit once the threshold is passed it partially negates the purpose of the Gren damage reduction.

Damage reduction comes at vet 3 and the problems exist way before that.
28 Oct 2022, 11:52 AM
#28
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 599

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Oct 2022, 11:16 AMVipper


PPSh is anything but a "highly accurate weapon" with far accuracy of 0.12

The intended use is close range with a vetted acc of 1.14, which SMG vetted or not is more accurate at its intended range? Why are you bringing up far accuracy in a question about short range unit?

Accuracy, damage reduction, armor all have similar effects in the long run because in most small amrs fights the weapon do not fire with 100% accuracy.
But every single example you gave involves RNG, damage reduction for Grens with a target size of 1 completely removes that at short range for Vetted PPSH, VET Para combines, VET SVT as they all have 100% acc or better.

Explosive weapons work different than small arms, since the accuracy of most of these weapon is too low to have a significant impact.

But yes damage reduction would work to protect infatry from these and that is why Grenadiers get it.

On the other hand neither the 120mm mortar nor the Pak howitzer do 80 so they can not kill entities with one shot.
I was talking about the actual howitzer/B4
The Game is RNG based so there is little wrong with RNG in general.
I agree, but the game promotes saving VET, units losing a vetted squad to clumping which has nothing to do with skill is infuriating. Something as minor as 5% damage reduction could stop a full health squad from dying upon exiting a building or turning a corner


1) depends on range
2) depends on enemy being in cover or not.


Damage reduction comes at vet 3 and the problems exist way before that.
They sure do, its just seems to be the one area where the damage reduction probably doesn't help as much as having a better target size.
28 Oct 2022, 11:57 AM
#29
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 599


Honestly, I don't see any problem with that. 0.8 RA means that the shots that passed the accuracy roll have a 20% chance to miss. Just multiply the DPS by RA and you get your DPS. However, a resource that compares different units with different setups would be great.


Yea your right, was over thinking it for a second. If we had something similar but had modifiers to change target size and another to change cover it would go a long way to explaining to the community how certain weapons work.

For example, IR Obers/JLI vs Vetted cons. Changing the covers could show how strong the unit is and help understand what your seeing in game.
28 Oct 2022, 12:46 PM
#30
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

The intended use is close range with a vetted acc of 1.14, which SMG vetted or not is more accurate at its intended range? Why are you bringing up far accuracy in a question about short range unit?

1) because units do not suddenly appear at range 0-10 so they unit will do more damage while they are closing in and more damage when the enemy retreats

2) because there is also garrison where the accuracy bonuses actually contribute.

Because one should not describe an smg as "high accuracy weapon"

Generally speaking imo SMG troops veterancy should be more focused on durability and reinforcement reduction than damage output.

But every single example you gave involves RNG, damage reduction for Grens with a target size of 1 completely removes that at short range for Vetted PPSH, VET Para combines, VET SVT as they all have 100% acc or better.

1) The game is RNG based by design
2) do not always fire at target size 1 units in the open


I agree, but the game promotes saving VET, units losing a vetted squad to clumping which has nothing to do with skill is infuriating. Something as minor as 5% damage reduction could stop a full health squad from dying upon exiting a building or turning a corner

That is why mortar and small howitzer can no longer do 80 damage.

If one wants do reduce squad wipe potential of artillery piece they can change weapon and does not have to add damage reduction.

Certain weapon are meant to be able to wipe squads though.


They sure do, its just seems to be the one area where the damage reduction probably doesn't help as much as having a better target size.

The situation is a bit more complicated than that since the scoped rifle is a high accuracy weapon and damage reduction might not help against the "critical kill shot" but it might help to reach the threshold slower.
28 Oct 2022, 13:33 PM
#31
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3104 | Subs: 2

A couple thoughts based off what you said, please correct me where I am wrong. (Mainly about SMG units)

Serelia data is fairly pointless even if it was 100% correct in a balance discussion as it uses a target size of 1 despite RA being the 2nd most important value. Hopefully, for COH3 we get a version that lets us test vs different target sizes.

Not quite. Serealia by itself has mixed quality of data, some is quite accurate, some is not. If you want to be cautious, apply a 10% error margin. The data on this site is good enough to discuss larger differences between weapons, but not the subtle ones.
The specific point I made about target size is potentially an artifact of calculation. If the calculation works the way we think it does, weapons that have high accuracy can be pushed over 100% when veterancy kicks in. In these special cases, there might be issues in the DPS data.
Soviet units in general scale better with regards to RA than USF/UKF. Across the board most Soviet units get 40% or more ACC with VET compared to the 30% or less USF/UKF get. Normally the argument would be that USF and UKF start with better based stats which would take this into account.

For example Rangers start off great with their 4 Thompsons and great RA of .73 which was made apparent when I tested them against AssG and won everytime. However with VET, AssG RA outscales Ranger Acc and AssG Acc outscales Ranger RA bonus leading to a situation where they perform a lot more similarly then expected. As Axis elites usually get larger RA bonus than 25% this would mean Rangers(and Paras) perform better against mainlines unless Paras use Tactical advance.

Penal Acc bonus may not increase max damage but would make them the most consistent performer against axis Elites as Penals could brute force past Axis great RA.

This also means anything less than 10% Target size buff against most Soviet PPSH is pointless which is why most OST players skip G43 upgrade in short range maps. At VET3, the Gren would receive the same amount of damage from a VET3 Shock/PPSH Con/PPSH Partisan or Penal which makes it a fairly lack luster upgrade vs LMG.

On the flip side, the damage reduction removal was a much larger nerf to Rangers than was advertised as no matter what their is a CAP on the damage certain weapons can do per second as seen with Gren example.

I am not sure if we are on the same page here on how the current understanding is regarding RA and DPS. In most circumstances, a 40% accuracy buff will also increase your DPS by 40%, because once your own squad hits the veterancy to get the +40% accuracy, chances are your opponent also has highly vetted squads. The occasions where you don't get the full bonus due to "over-accuracy" are usually when the enemy rebuilds a wiped squad in the late game.

The offensive bonuses for Rangers are indeed rather on the slim side. Their veterancy RA is pretty much what other squads get as well. The damage reduction was definitely a nerf to Rangers, because it made them way more susceptible to AoE weapons. You also should not forget that the Thompson is a close-mid ranged weapon. Rangers losing to absolute close range specialists like elite PPSh troops is intended.

Regarding G43 Grenadiers, the 10% target size buff is worth it even against close range PPSh troops. Grenadiers have a base value of 0.91, meaning highly vetted Soviet PPSh troops have a "natural" close range accuracy of 1.04. The additional 10% RA pushes it down to 0.94, so you'll get 6% instead of 10%. It also helps against literally other small arms like MGs, hull MGs, rifles etc.
28 Oct 2022, 13:55 PM
#32
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 599

Had another issue that has been bugging me for a while. JLI vs Shocks, does the armor help vs the crit shot.

Test was JLI squad wiped to last model so only G43 shoots and set to invulnerable.
Shocks at max range, so JLI don’t miss as they have better acc at range, health set to 70%.

Each shot hit and sniper crit kill. Did it twice so 12 models, can do it more if needed but I would have expected armor to help at least once.


I have gotten into arguments in game about this as the average thought process makes sense. JLI are weak short range, Shocks are best short range squad. However in my personal play they just seemed to drop so fast. As the crit seems to be tied to hitting or not, Target size is most important followed by squad load out.

My personal experience fighting JLI for Soviets my SMG suggestions

PPSH cons - can literally sprint closer to get into mid range where the G43 acc goes down, has 2 model buffer so high damage can still be done
Partisans - can move in cloak so they can get in position and minimize losses
Airborne - can cloak but not move so it’s is more defensive will lose effectiveness in a charge
AssG - mix model so has a 3 model buffer so will retain most of its performance in a charge
Shocks - high reinforce and worst target size with vet(partisans) mean you will bleed hard

I have also found smoke to be a bad idea as JLI can simply relocate and recloak

USF
Paras - have a two model buffer so they will do fine closing in, due to bad target size even with Vet JLI will perform will on approach
Rangers - only one model buffer but great starting RA allows possible approach without taking crit shot. When both JLI and Rangers are vetted, JLI will still hit at max range but fall of shortly so a hard push really allows rangers to shine

Commandos are probably best SMG squad as they can get in to optimal range without taking any damage
28 Oct 2022, 14:07 PM
#33
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 599



Regarding G43 Grenadiers, the 10% target size buff is worth it even against close range PPSh troops. Grenadiers have a base value of 0.91, meaning highly vetted Soviet PPSh troops have a "natural" close range accuracy of 1.04. The additional 10% RA pushes it down to 0.94, so you'll get 6% instead of 10%. It also helps against literally other small arms like MGs, hull MGs, rifles etc.


Why is it 1.04? Isn’t the base value .8 so the vet would be 1.12. 1.04 would be exclusive to Vet3 Airborne and Vet2 Penals right?

Sorry for weird formatting on my phone.

With respect to what you said about Rangers, it doesn’t make any sense to me.

My example with regards to VET was specific to AssG. They both use Thompsons and Rangers have 1 more Thompson so technically the ranger is the more short range focused squad. This is apparent in their Vet0 performance but Vet3 evens this out quite a bit which as we both agree is due to Rangers inferior vet. Paras winning made sense as on top of the 4 Thompsons they get 2 elite carbines that also perform great at close range.

Also Thompsons are the best allied SMG by quite a bit they were given better mid range compared to the rest because it was a massive nerf when the gun was first released.

Back from Sept 2015, will update if I find more recent comments
M1 Thompsons

Increase their mid and far range profile so the weapon itself is not an immediate downgrade in overall dps.
28 Oct 2022, 16:11 PM
#34
avatar of OKSpitfire

Posts: 282

Just as an aside. Wouldn't it be great if in COH 3 we can get a centralised wiki with all unit stats that relic actually maintains and keeps up to date? Fabulously optimistic i know.

The amount of work and testing that has gone into this stuff just by the community, over the years, is crazy.
28 Oct 2022, 20:17 PM
#35
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1295


Shocks - high reinforce and worst target size with vet(partisans) mean you will bleed hard


Our fact checkers have deemed this statement "Mostly False". While Shocks do recieve the worst target size with vet, it's important to note that they recieve this target size in addition to the armor they start with, which makes most small arms fire bounce off of them 1/3rd if the time if it does end up landing.

Close quarters units tend to bleed when they are caught at mid to long range, but there is no reason to expect that shocks do it more than other units.



half kidding half serious
28 Oct 2022, 20:20 PM
#36
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1295

Just as an aside. Wouldn't it be great if in COH 3 we can get a centralised wiki with all unit stats that relic actually maintains and keeps up to date? Fabulously optimistic i know.

The amount of work and testing that has gone into this stuff just by the community, over the years, is crazy.


YES PLEASE GOD

This was one of the first posts I made in the CoH3 discussions board.

Men of War has an in-game unit library. You click on the unit and boom, you see health, stamina, abilities, you can see the squad composition. All of this stuff in game and without having to dig into the files. Relic please.

What wiki could possibly be better than information straight from the game itself??
28 Oct 2022, 20:34 PM
#37
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 599



Our fact checkers have deemed this statement "Mostly False". While Shocks do recieve the worst target size with vet, it's important to note that they recieve this target size in addition to the armor they start with, which makes most small arms fire bounce off of them 1/3rd if the time if it does end up landing.

Close quarters units tend to bleed when they are caught at mid to long range, but there is no reason to expect that shocks do it more than other units.



half kidding half serious


The whole statement is specific to JLI matchup. JLI sniper crit ignores the armor as I was explaining in the test.

Aside from that specific match up they are the best.

EDIT: please reread the whole post as it has nothing to do with the rest of the thread. It was about a test I did for shocks vs JLI and my personal experience playing against JLI with different SMG squads
28 Oct 2022, 20:48 PM
#38
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1295



The whole statement is specific to JLI matchup. JLI sniper crit ignores the armor as I was explaining in the test.

Aside from that specific match up they are the best.

EDIT: please reread the whole post as it has nothing to do with the rest of the thread. It was about a test I did for shocks vs JLI and my personal experience playing against JLI with different SMG squads


So what you're saying is I missed the point?

No... it can't be...

:guyokay:
29 Oct 2022, 22:00 PM
#39
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772



Our fact checkers have deemed this statement "Mostly False". While Shocks do recieve the worst target size with vet, it's important to note that they recieve this target size in addition to the armor they start with, which makes most small arms fire bounce off of them 1/3rd if the time if it does end up landing.

Close quarters units tend to bleed when they are caught at mid to long range, but there is no reason to expect that shocks do it more than other units.


The observation of shox being tricky to use is correct, especially in the mid and late game.

Why? Because pintles and LMGs have higher pen then 1. Having a higher penetration value then 1 renders their body armor less effective.

In terms of the topic, this info is useless, but in terms of a bigger picture, this is quite a big factor, imo.
31 Oct 2022, 10:39 AM
#40
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3104 | Subs: 2



Why is it 1.04? Isn’t the base value .8 so the vet would be 1.12. 1.04 would be exclusive to Vet3 Airborne and Vet2 Penals right?

This was referring to PPSh unit vs Grenadiers
1. base close range accuracy of PPSh Shock troop variant: 0,816
2. Shock troops accuracy veterancy: +40% (0,816 * 1,4 = 1,1424)
3. Grenadier target size: 0,91 (1,1424 * 0,91 = 1,039584)
4. For G43 Grenadiers, the additional 0,9 RA does push the overall accuracy down to 0,9356.... So it has an effect, albeit not the intended 10% in this very specific setup of vet3 PPSh troops vs G43 Grenadiers.

Since Grens do not get further RA buffs with vet, but "only" damage reduction, they are an extreme example for accuracy calculations here. Volksgrenadiers get 0,77 RA which pushes the overall accuracy below 1. Again, all this assumes that capping the accuracy at 1 happens after step3 and not step2, which I think should be the case but I am not 100% sure anymore if I tested exactly that.


Sorry for weird formatting on my phone.

With respect to what you said about Rangers, it doesn’t make any sense to me.

My example with regards to VET was specific to AssG. They both use Thompsons and Rangers have 1 more Thompson so technically the ranger is the more short range focused squad. This is apparent in their Vet0 performance but Vet3 evens this out quite a bit which as we both agree is due to Rangers inferior vet. Paras winning made sense as on top of the 4 Thompsons they get 2 elite carbines that also perform great at close range.

I was probably thinking about Airborne Guards that get PPSh, not Assault Guards with their Thompsons. In that case it would make sense for Rangers to lose.
Looking at the numbers, I find it hard to believe that Assault Guards are supposed to be THAT strong. It actually looks like they don't have that much going for them. RA both at vet0 and vet3 is pretty mediocre. The weapon loadout also doesn't look super special to me. The vet is nothing super special either besides getting +40% accuracy instead of the more usual +30%. That's a nice buff, but not sure if worth it.

If I have time, I'll test them myself.

Also Thompsons are the best allied SMG by quite a bit they were given better mid range compared to the rest because it was a massive nerf when the gun was first released.

Back from Sept 2015, will update if I find more recent comments
M1 Thompsons

Increase their mid and far range profile so the weapon itself is not an immediate downgrade in overall dps.

As stated above, I was under the assumption that they get PPSh because I was thinking about the wrong squad.
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Livestreams

New Zealand 62
unknown 20
Germany 16

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

443 users are online: 1 member and 442 guests
Crecer13
18 posts in the last 24h
46 posts in the last week
101 posts in the last month
Registered members: 44651
Welcome our newest member, kajalfw9
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM