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since we are adding prototype tanks in game

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7 Oct 2022, 14:37 PM
#341
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1190



How is it fiction when 6 prototypes got build and we have one still intact?

How is misrepresenting history a balance decision in a game supposedly very focused on authentisity? And presenting a tank based on a working and actively serving tank fiction?

Again authentisity takes some very big steps to background when it concerns axis factions. Yet minds get blown when this goes in favor off allies.


Same way Ratte is fiction even though it got the stamp of approval from Hitler and OKW Production team.

It's one thing to have tanks fight in a funny way to simplify gameplay (since IRL tank battles were boring as shit) and a whole other thing to have paper tanks fighting it out on 1941 NA of all places. Not even a Tiger should be there but whatever.

Imagine a fucking WW1 Landship fighting alongside PzIIIs in COH3. You would not like that would you? Well that's the same amount of technological gap that exists between 1941 (where COH3 takes place) and 1945 (where BP was barely even assembled).
7 Oct 2022, 15:53 PM
#342
avatar of LordRommel
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 278 | Subs: 1


Same way Ratte is fiction even though it got the stamp of approval from Hitler and OKW Production team.


Thats not true. The "Grote tanks" (the monster tank projects designed by Edward F. Grote) were rejected by Waffenprüfamt 6 and Speer in late 1942 before they got any attention by other persons. The tanks like the Ratte or P.1000/1500 are pure paper designs never intended for production.
Source: Überschwere Panzerprojekte: Konzepte und Entwürfe der Wehrmacht by Michael Fröhlich

So they are pure fake B-)



7 Oct 2022, 16:14 PM
#343
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



The one decent question here. Thanks for bringing it up.

Sturmtiger, due to its nature as a very specific purpose vehicle, was not at first directly recorded at the Wehrmacht's Inventory Designation with the "SturmTiger" tag simply because they did not know how to label it since it had a Tiger I chassis but a custom made 274kg breechloading Raketenwerfer. It is estimated that the first five models were not registered with the PzStuMrKp designation. As such the number of available ST produced varies between 19-25 models. Obviously not of statistical significance but you had one jab to take me down and you took advantage of it.

Nice try tho.

Note: A very interesting analysis of the SturmTiger effectiveness can be found here JENTZ, Thomas L. & DOYLE, Hilary L. Panzer Tracts No. 20-1 - Paper Panzers : Panzerkampfwagen, Sturmgeschuetz, and Jagdpanzer. Boyds, MD : Panzer Tracts, 2001. 60 p. ISBN 0-9708407-3-X.

As for the combat effectiveness part your take is dumb for two reasons: first nobody can effectively assess a vehicle that was produced for a specific purpose but never seriously got a chance to prove itself on it. Leaving wikipedia aside and actually reading the literature, you will find (as noted above) that the ST was used only once for its intented role, that is close range urban warfare scenarios.

In the Warsaw uprising it was used to take down buildings purportedly belonging to the populace fighting. It was deadly effective. In a common combat scenario I would imagine not so.

HOWEVER, and that's where your retardedness really shines, when you attempt to compare ST vs BP you fail automatically because BP NEVER FOUGHT.

So following the argument line: "ST was niche -> BP was niche => BP should be included in COH3" is 100% braindead talk simply because BP was never a vehicle that fought.

Comparing the combat record of both is ridiculous and anybody who says so should be ashamed of spouting such nonsense to stick it to bad wEhRaBoOs.


A very long answer but not much is said.

To compare their combat records is stupid indeed. Its just i never compared the st and bp combat preformance and combat history. I never attempted it to begin with. So there is no failure or retardedness here other then bad reading on your part.
I stated the st's record is almost none excistant and is very close to being a prototype on its own to where the bp is in history. Hence undeserving of being in coh (esp stock)

You also just confirmed here that everything known is rare scetchy and up for debate about the st. That it never got the chance to prove itself in its role is a failure on its own.
7 Oct 2022, 16:41 PM
#344
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1190



Thats not true. The "Grote tanks" (the monster tank projects designed by Edward F. Grote) were rejected by Waffenprüfamt 6 and Speer in late 1942 before they got any attention by other persons. The tanks like the Ratte or P.1000/1500 are pure paper designs never intended for production.
Source: Überschwere Panzerprojekte: Konzepte und Entwürfe der Wehrmacht by Michael Fröhlich

So they are pure fake B-)





I never talked about the Grote tanks and of course I have read Frohlich's work.

I mentioned specifically Ratte, which got a direct approval from Hitler and later, as you said, was vetoed by non other than Speer himself.

He says so in his first memoir "Inside the Third Reich", if you really want I will give you page number when I get home.

But now that you mentioned Grote, I have to say, that he generally is the epitome of a sketchy figure in history in general. Few, if any, fragments of his life and work survive.

What is known about him is that he was born around 1884. What did he study? What did he learn from early years? Nobody knows. He appears in WW2 history in 1929/30 when he was working in Rheinmetall and got an invite from the Soviet Union to try and set the foundations for a mechanological industry. His first monster paper tank was designed in 1930 and was named TG (Tank Grote) which did not fight in any war.

Under undisclosed conditions, he left USSR in 1933, where it is unknown what he was doing. In 1941 he worked in the Ministry of Armaments (under Todt back then) where he was assigned as a field tester for the naval division. What he did is unknown (at least to me).

How he came across as Hitler's pet project designer is unknown. What is more unknown is the profile of another mechanic called Hacker. Both of them got hired by Hitler for the top secret project of the Landcruiser P1000 "Ratte" and P1500 "Monster" (Fortress Tanks were envisioned to be the future).

In 1942 Speer vetoed it.

The rest of his life is completely unknown. The last surviving piece of himself is an application dated April 1950 for a patent in West Germany (patent for what? nobody knows). According to the document, he was living in South Africa at the time.

Truly a shadow figure if there ever was one in WW2 terms.
7 Oct 2022, 16:43 PM
#345
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1190



I stated the st's record is almost none excistant and is very close to being a prototype on its own to where the bp is in history. Hence undeserving of being in coh (esp stock)

You also just confirmed here that everything known is rare scetchy and up for debate about the st. That it never got the chance to prove itself in its role is a failure on its own.


Sketchy, agreed. Nonexistant, no.

"Close to being a prototype" is a critique only you make and most historians disagree with.

7 Oct 2022, 17:36 PM
#346
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



Same way Ratte is fiction even though it got the stamp of approval from Hitler and OKW Production team.

It's one thing to have tanks fight in a funny way to simplify gameplay (since IRL tank battles were boring as shit) and a whole other thing to have paper tanks fighting it out on 1941 NA of all places. Not even a Tiger should be there but whatever.

Imagine a fucking WW1 Landship fighting alongside PzIIIs in COH3. You would not like that would you? Well that's the same amount of technological gap that exists between 1941 (where COH3 takes place) and 1945 (where BP was barely even assembled).


Ratte was an unrealistic and unpractical design thought up by people who missed the mark. That it would actually be usefful is fiction at its best.
The bp however though not deployed was a realistic and viable design. Based or previous designs that saw action, not something completly new and untried.

When its boring historical acc is not important apperently. Gameplay and fun even when its fictiinal for a large part beats historical acc on a game that is suposed be as historical accurate as possible...

Again you go on and on about history drumming up crazy shit tobtryband prove toubare right, such as ww1 landbattle ships facing ww2 pz3 and stating thats the same tech difference of start and end off ww2.
If thats true why do you think having early war soviets and late war axis is fine from a standpoint based on historical accuracy and authentisity?
Ow wait fun and gameplay are now more important.

Really nice selective logic.
7 Oct 2022, 17:42 PM
#347
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



Sketchy, agreed. Nonexistant, no.

"Close to being a prototype" is a critique only you make and most historians disagree with.



I didnt say none excistant. Close to it.

On the rest yeah i agree they will probably disagree.
9 Oct 2022, 12:08 PM
#348
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 242


It’s so strange you’re arguing against the people who want to remove half of the superheavies in the game, while you don’t even care about the BPs inclusion. We want to have an aspect of the game removed which you don’t like and no one is inconsistent about it either. If we’re going to talk about what Relic is realistically going to do, I might as well not post about it all together.

Its rly not that strange, but ur welcome to ur opinion. Imo its very simple. I dont want superheavies in general, but mostly just for gameplay reasons

I just find the argument that "BP isnt historical" to be funny because the previous games werent all that authentic either. Thats it

Of course ur welcome to complain about its addition. I just dont understand the lvl of surprise some ppl r having
9 Oct 2022, 12:57 PM
#349
avatar of Fargoth88

Posts: 28



I wanted to respond to just this section.

If a unit such as the bp ruins authentisity, why are you people silent in coh 2 about the inclusion of the st and no rescritions on heavy spam? Or about
early war soviets vs late war germany? I know why snub nose p4,s that bounce off t34's arent cool, not having panthers and tiger and wunderwaffen/niche units is detracting to the axis factions appeal and makes less money. Every one wants a big cat and then authentisity disapears.
Its quite sad that when authenticity comes for axis "gameplay and fun" is suddenly more important.

The good reasons for a unit such as the black prince is money with hype. What they did for axis in coh1 and coh 2. I 100% like it that allies now get a wunderwaffen/niche angle as well to mix it up.
And freeing allies of td spam every single game. Wich both axis and allies complain about.


Well firstly, I disagree that there is this ‘unrestricted’ heavy tank meta. This is partly because I mostly play 1v1 but even in 2v2, I rarely see Sturmtigers and Jagdtigers. Kingtigers and Tigers often make appearances but those have every right to be there. There were German formations that had a lot of those tanks and OKW is pretty specifically based on the 6th Panzer army in the Ardennes on the 16th of December, which had plenty of King Tigers at that time. Even the sturmtiger has a right to be there since it was used in the Ardennes. Panthers also weren’t exactly rare in the Ardennes. If you’re going to make a faction on the Germans that amassed all the equipment they have left for a final counterattack, it makes sense that the faction actually has that equipment.

Late war Germans vs early war Soviets is such disingenuous framing. I agree that the T34/76 and conscripts just armed with rifles make little sense for 1944 but the soviets still have plenty of competent infantry and heavier vehicles. The Wehrmacht also doesn’t have that many late war vehicles either. Tigers, Panthers and Elefants were all at Kursk.

It's not that the BP completely ruins authenticity but it’s the one unit that stands out right now. There is no individual thing in COH2 that is on the level of the BP. Even if I were to grant you that COH2 has a lot of smaller things that don’t make sense, COH3 currently has only one. We might as well remove that one thing. If they want to generate hype with heavy tanks, then why is it only this one vehicle? If they want to do 1944/1945 all over again that is fine by me, but that doesn’t seem to be what the direction is of the DAK and the British. I wouldn’t mind the BP if it was added to the British in COH2 but the vehicle stands out a lot in COH3.
9 Oct 2022, 17:47 PM
#350
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 776 | Subs: 1



Well firstly, I disagree that there is this ‘unrestricted’ heavy tank meta. This is partly because I mostly play 1v1 but even in 2v2, I rarely see Sturmtigers and Jagdtigers. Kingtigers and Tigers often make appearances but those have every right to be there. There were German formations that had a lot of those tanks and OKW is pretty specifically based on the 6th Panzer army in the Ardennes on the 16th of December, which had plenty of King Tigers at that time. Even the sturmtiger has a right to be there since it was used in the Ardennes. Panthers also weren’t exactly rare in the Ardennes. If you’re going to make a faction on the Germans that amassed all the equipment they have left for a final counterattack, it makes sense that the faction actually has that equipment.

Late war Germans vs early war Soviets is such disingenuous framing. I agree that the T34/76 and conscripts just armed with rifles make little sense for 1944 but the soviets still have plenty of competent infantry and heavier vehicles. The Wehrmacht also doesn’t have that many late war vehicles either. Tigers, Panthers and Elefants were all at Kursk.

It's not that the BP completely ruins authenticity but it’s the one unit that stands out right now. There is no individual thing in COH2 that is on the level of the BP. Even if I were to grant you that COH2 has a lot of smaller things that don’t make sense, COH3 currently has only one. We might as well remove that one thing. If they want to generate hype with heavy tanks, then why is it only this one vehicle? If they want to do 1944/1945 all over again that is fine by me, but that doesn’t seem to be what the direction is of the DAK and the British. I wouldn’t mind the BP if it was added to the British in COH2 but the vehicle stands out a lot in COH3.


this is the best take on the subject

there is also no need for the black prince because the churchill 7 is more than enough, everything short of a 88mm pak/flak will have a hell of a time to play vs it
10 Oct 2022, 12:26 PM
#351
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1190



Ratte was an unrealistic and unpractical design thought up by people who missed the mark. That it would actually be usefful is fiction at its best.
The bp however though not deployed was a realistic and viable design. Based or previous designs that saw action,


That's your take and yours only.

There's no point comparing effectiveness of units that never saw battle, that's the whole point of this thread.

You saying that in a battlefield scenario BP would perform "better" than Maus is larping at least and alliedcucking at most.
10 Oct 2022, 12:28 PM
#352
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1190


Its rly not that strange, but ur welcome to ur opinion. Imo its very simple. I dont want superheavies in general, but mostly just for gameplay reasons

I just find the argument that "BP isnt historical" to be funny because the previous games werent all that authentic either. Thats it

Of course ur welcome to complain about its addition. I just dont understand the lvl of surprise some ppl r having


The problem with people like you is that you are neither for nor against BP.

All you talk about is how lelic in the past abused history. That's a whole other story.

You saying "I am not against nor for BP but lelic with KT [insert random ranting completely missing the point]" is part of the problem.
10 Oct 2022, 12:29 PM
#353
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1190



this is the best take on the subject

there is also no need for the black prince because the churchill 7 is more than enough, everything short of a 88mm pak/flak will have a hell of a time to play vs it


True
10 Oct 2022, 13:00 PM
#354
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



Well firstly, I disagree that there is this ‘unrestricted’ heavy tank meta. This is partly because I mostly play 1v1 but even in 2v2, I rarely see Sturmtigers and Jagdtigers. Kingtigers and Tigers often make appearances but those have every right to be there. There were German formations that had a lot of those tanks and OKW is pretty specifically based on the 6th Panzer army in the Ardennes on the 16th of December, which had plenty of King Tigers at that time. Even the sturmtiger has a right to be there since it was used in the Ardennes. Panthers also weren’t exactly rare in the Ardennes. If you’re going to make a faction on the Germans that amassed all the equipment they have left for a final counterattack, it makes sense that the faction actually has that equipment.

Late war Germans vs early war Soviets is such disingenuous framing. I agree that the T34/76 and conscripts just armed with rifles make little sense for 1944 but the soviets still have plenty of competent infantry and heavier vehicles. The Wehrmacht also doesn’t have that many late war vehicles either. Tigers, Panthers and Elefants were all at Kursk.

It's not that the BP completely ruins authenticity but it’s the one unit that stands out right now. There is no individual thing in COH2 that is on the level of the BP. Even if I were to grant you that COH2 has a lot of smaller things that don’t make sense, COH3 currently has only one. We might as well remove that one thing. If they want to generate hype with heavy tanks, then why is it only this one vehicle? If they want to do 1944/1945 all over again that is fine by me, but that doesn’t seem to be what the direction is of the DAK and the British. I wouldn’t mind the BP if it was added to the British in COH2 but the vehicle stands out a lot in COH3.


I agree in 1v1 the heavies and super heavies are fine. 1v1 is as it should be. We cant ignore bigger modes however.

In bigger modes they are almost spammed. 4 elephant or 4 kt at the same time is redicolous esp with how the "big" maps are. Even when you kill them they are easely replaced in a lot of games.
P4's are a rarety in 4s. Panthers are the norm. Just as heavies and s heavies. There is no incentive for axis other then go heavies right away. Forcing td spamm and offmap ram combo's for allies. In turn this has axis skip p4's all together.

That you think early was su vs late war axis is disingenuous i understand. Its just that some purists complain way to much about authenticity and historical accuracy regarding the bp because of the simple rule they made up" it fired a shot in a battle" ignoring everthing else. Late war axis vs early war soviets i personaly dont mind as long as it works out.

If they use a churchill instead of the bp i am fine as long as its not an ai only/focused heavie. A churchill with say a 17 pounder.
I want a option for allies to not have to default into td's despite it being accurate to history. And as it seems axis again get default heavie armour although somewhat limited. This concerns me that we will again have the vicious circle of heavies and td's killing light and medium play outright.
10 Oct 2022, 15:34 PM
#355
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



That's your take and yours only.

There's no point comparing effectiveness of units that never saw battle, that's the whole point of this thread.

You saying that in a battlefield scenario BP would perform "better" than Maus is larping at least and alliedcucking at most.


I never compared them on their potential battle preformance alone, just about the ratte and not the maus. But that also fits this description.
You only look at it from a 1v1 situation. I look at the entire picture from start to finish aka the war itself.

One is based on proven tank and the other is not.
One is a vaible option in terms of recources and manpower and logictics and the other is not.
Not even taking into account the vast resource differences between axis and allies at that point.

I know you are very busy insulting almost everyone who disagrees with you. So if you spend less time with that and actually read what is written you wont end up trying to put words in my mouth i did not say or mis what is said.
10 Oct 2022, 15:56 PM
#356
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1006 | Subs: 1

Can you guys stop projecting whole BP situation into CoH2 balance\state and use it as a justification\reasoning behind its existance?

CoH3 is not CoH2 to begin with and even CoH2 isn't a CoH1.

CoH2 has its problems in bigger gamemodes with amount of heavy units, but it wasn't the case for instance in vCoH (where axis vet rush was the problem in larger gamemodes).

CoH3 is a new game, even freaking Panther is a doc unit in it and heaviest confirmed german tank is Tiger 1, yet half of the thread is "Well in CoH2 allies had to deal with unrealistic amount of heavy armor\Axis had all the heavies to play with, therefore in CoH3 ...". Forget about previous games.

We didnt even get proper MP test, yet, there are already people preaching that BP is gonna be KT equivalent\counter, despite CoH3 not having KT confirmed to be in the game in a first place.
10 Oct 2022, 16:19 PM
#357
avatar of OKSpitfire

Posts: 125

Can you guys stop projecting whole BP situation into CoH2 balance\state and use it as a justification\reasoning behind its existance?

CoH3 is not CoH2 to begin with and even CoH2 isn't a CoH1.

CoH2 has its problems in bigger gamemodes with amount of heavy units, but it wasn't the case for instance in vCoH (where axis vet rush was the problem in larger gamemodes).

CoH3 is a new game, even freaking Panther is a doc unit in it and heaviest confirmed german tank is Tiger 1, yet half of the thread is "Well in CoH2 allies had to deal with unrealistic amount of heavy armor\Axis had all the heavies to play with, therefore in CoH3 ...". Forget about previous games.

We didnt even get proper MP test, yet, there are already people preaching that BP is gonna be KT equivalent\counter, despite CoH3 not having KT confirmed to be in the game in a first place.


He's got a point. Several people here have have been making some oddly specific claims about what the meta will be, when the truth is we really don't know and that it's certain to change a great deal after release.
10 Oct 2022, 17:59 PM
#358
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 242


The problem with people like you is that you are neither for nor against BP.

Lol im glad u finally learned how to read. At least u graduated from assuming everyone arguing against u is just obsessed with allied dominance


All you talk about is how lelic in the past abused history. That's a whole other story.

Because its relevant to my point. Just cuz its not relevant to ur incessant whining doesn't mean shit

This is CoH 3. Not a brand new franchise that's attempting to market itself as 100% realistic. It's a continuation of the first 2 games


You saying "I am not against nor for BP but lelic with KT [insert random ranting completely missing the point]" is part of the problem.

U mean its part of ur problem. I guess cope is just a word u scream at everyone else except urself

I have no problem with KT being included in coh2. If u think i do, then clearly u r still struggling with reading
10 Oct 2022, 18:15 PM
#359
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 242

Can you guys stop projecting whole BP situation into CoH2 balance\state and use it as a justification\reasoning behind its existance?

Speaking for myself, I'm not using coh2 balance as justification. It's an example of what would bother me in coh3

If BP is seen every game in coh3 and it's dominating the meta, that will bother me more than it's lack of historical backing. It's relative, balance > authenticity

But I have no idea how common it will be, cuz like u said we haven't gotten a good enough test of MP
11 Oct 2022, 00:16 AM
#360
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 643



Tigers, Panthers and Elefants were all at Kursk.



Small history amendment:

Around four dozen Elefants were withdrawn from Kursk and refitted. About a dozen were deployed to Italy to reinforce the Gustav Line after the failure of the Anzio landing.

The Americans and British ran into them in unicorn numbers but they did.

The other three dozen were redeployed to Ukraine.
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