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since we are adding prototype tanks in game

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5 Oct 2022, 13:13 PM
#321
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

I don't think many people here are trying to "stick it to wheraboos" but if folks are going to argue the KT/JT/ST aren't overrepresented then id say you are fighting reality not being identified as a wheraboo. Thier representation is indeed fiction.

The sturmtiger is a failure in combat history, There isn't any record of it forcing battalions into retreat. No record of it wiping out entire platoons, striking fear into American/allied troops hearts. that's a pretty big fiction compared to its gameplay role where it does these things.

I think what some people here are trying to point out regardless of some axis and allies contest is that these fictions have occurred many times prior. This one is somehow earth shattering.

I do think its a pretty niche crowd who cant concede the idea that COH has taken these liberties in fiction before and perhaps it makes this discussion interesting on another level. I can see how the folks in that camp would have trouble with authenticity if they thought the game had been fairly factual and faithful to history up to this point, which would be concerning.


BP was also a "failure" in military terms since the leadership ruled against using it due to how shite of a vehicle it was. ST was produced 20x more than BP.

Even by your standards, your argument falls apart.
5 Oct 2022, 13:17 PM
#322
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197


Rather see COH 3 fail and they continue development on COH1 or COH2 instead




Right now my friend and I were discussing this. He is in many CoH communities, and he says that out of his 70 CoH friends, only one has pre-ordered the game. People don't like where the series is going.


Absolutely to be expected.

When your serious gritty WW2 RTS becomes a chinese software sweatshop product what can seriously be expected?

And when I point that shit out people like [REDACTED] call me "cheap" since "if everybody is willing to pay only 20$ for a game don't be disappointed when it turns out shite". Clearly the logic of a loser company, and not one capable of making the next big RTS revival.

Just my 0.02$.

5 Oct 2022, 18:31 PM
#323
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 545

It’s not on me to manufacture a history to make a fictional take on its combat history, it’s on you to find more than one alleged instance it had a success. I’m leaning towards you’ll have a tough time manufacturing a history where the sturmtiger was a successful AFV. I don’t think anyone is under the illusion it was deployed in its intended role, it wasn’t but that doesn’t make it a success story either it was a failure.

So again it’s a fictional liberty that relic took for gameplay to come back to the thread discussion. The BP is the same move. If we are going to be so concerned the BP never shipped to the front line, the Centurion mark 1 only missed combat due to the surrender of the nazi regime. More simply put, if the old men and boys fought afew days longer you would have seen the centurion on the field, so maybe swap the model of the BP to it if that’s your historical fiction line.
5 Oct 2022, 21:23 PM
#324
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1

It’s not on me to manufacture a history to make a fictional take on its combat history, it’s on you to find more than one alleged instance it had a success. I’m leaning towards you’ll have a tough time manufacturing a history where the sturmtiger was a successful AFV. I don’t think anyone is under the illusion it was deployed in its intended role, it wasn’t but that doesn’t make it a success story either it was a failure.

So again it’s a fictional liberty that relic took for gameplay to come back to the thread discussion. The BP is the same move. If we are going to be so concerned the BP never shipped to the front line, the Centurion mark 1 only missed combat due to the surrender of the nazi regime. More simply put, if the old men and boys fought afew days longer you would have seen the centurion on the field, so maybe swap the model of the BP to it if that’s your historical fiction line.

Simply NO.

Representing a vehicle in the game differently than in real life is one thing and actually (none of the vehicles in game behave as the real counter part.)

Introducing a prototype unit that never saw action in the game is quite another. You might be fine with it but others are not.

As for history you have made a very specific claim: "The sturmtiger is a failure in combat history," and you simply have not backed up that claim with any source.

I think at this we can agree to disagree.
6 Oct 2022, 03:30 AM
#325
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 545

Yea I don’t mind it’s inclusion and it’s not just me, and there are people that don’t. I doubt everyone is going to be happy but I don’t see anything conclusive about this fiction compared to previous fictional representations, and relic states that in their of dev commentary. I mean we can argue against realities that some units got a re written past and yes it includes the sturmtiger and the JT and the KT if you like but I’m glad to hear relic won’t be arguing that they didn’t see some generous takes on their real life deployments and relic has a grasp on that.
6 Oct 2022, 11:58 AM
#326
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 786 | Subs: 1

Yea I don’t mind it’s inclusion and it’s not just me, and there are people that don’t. I doubt everyone is going to be happy but I don’t see anything conclusive about this fiction compared to previous fictional representations, and relic states that in their of dev commentary. I mean we can argue against realities that some units got a re written past and yes it includes the sturmtiger and the JT and the KT if you like but I’m glad to hear relic won’t be arguing that they didn’t see some generous takes on their real life deployments and relic has a grasp on that.


i dont agree with the black prince being added, I'd rather see the churchill 7 and have that be the apex predator of everything that does not have a 88mm gun on it
6 Oct 2022, 14:19 PM
#327
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 545

People both Like and dislike the unit, both camps existing isn't going to be a reason to remove the unit. folks may want to attempt to disagree on the ST having an unsuccessfully history but thankfully relic doesn't seem to disagree from their own development statements. So if folks cant cede that there have been some borderline wacky choices and changes to a units real world history of success that's ok, no need to debate against stubborn refusal. Relic has done their homework (as id hope they did) and they are aware that they took those wack not very true to life route with units like the KT and Jagdtiger for an interesting product.

Some people want it some people don't, and again I don't think you can please everyone. I like to hear Relic reasoning that they want to weigh those previous inclusions that were fictional representations and use that going forward to make some new inclusions. And again the Skink would be a cool inclusion as since number don't matter to Relic, it would be a cool compatriot to the whirblwind and the Centurion would have seen the war if only the surrender hadn't come as it was shipped with the intent to do the same battlefield testing as Pershing. I'm glad relic didn't go full historical in COH otherwise it would have been a pretty limited franchise, we've seen some cool units and abilities that aren't true to their life nature.
6 Oct 2022, 14:32 PM
#328
avatar of OKSpitfire

Posts: 287

People both Like and dislike the unit, both camps existing isn't going to be a reason to remove the unit. folks may want to attempt to disagree on the ST having an unsuccessfully history but thankfully relic doesn't seem to disagree from their own development statements. So if folks cant cede that there have been some borderline wacky choices and changes to a units real world history of success that's ok, no need to debate against stubborn refusal. Relic has done their homework (as id hope they did) and they are aware that they took those wack not very true to life route with units like the KT and Jagdtiger for an interesting product.

Some people want it some people don't, and again I don't think you can please everyone. I like to hear Relic reasoning that they want to weigh those previous inclusions that were fictional representations and use that going forward to make some new inclusions. And again the Skink would be a cool inclusion as since number don't matter to Relic, it would be a cool compatriot to the whirblwind and the Centurion would have seen the war if only the surrender hadn't come as it was shipped with the intent to do the same battlefield testing as Pershing. I'm glad relic didn't go full historical in COH otherwise it would have been a pretty limited franchise, we've seen some cool units and abilities that aren't true to their life nature.


I think the vast majority of the playerbase would agree with you here.
6 Oct 2022, 18:45 PM
#329
avatar of Fargoth88

Posts: 30


No soviets yet u mean. Would not at all be surprised if they got added just like USF/OKW/Brits in coh2. Hell lots of ppl wanted a japanese faction in coh2 (not me) so i think u r seriously underestimating the fanbase of coh's tolerance for things that arent historically accurate


What the fuck r u talking about here? I dont like or dislike the BP. Im just not having a conniption over its addition because im used to Relic taking a poetic license with ww2

Im not hiding behind anything either, just giving my opinion about my preferences. Im far from the only one who didnt like heavy tank meta after the patch where heavies for all factions got overbuffed


I have no clue why they decided to add it. All im saying is they need do a lot more than that to lose me as a player, and u urself have said the exact same thing...


We still can’t say if they are going to add the soviets or not. Right now in COH3, the Black Prince does stand out. You can say that taking liberties is acceptable and that the previous game was worse but that doesn’t change the reality in COH3. A WW2 game should strive to be as authentic as possible and COH3 would be a lot more authentic if the changed one unit. No one actually has a good reason for its inclusion anyway. No one asked for it and it’s not exactly a unit that ties the whole faction together. A game based on a historic period is obviously more complicated than being either authentic or inauthentic. Taking mechanical liberties like tanks taking four at gun shots and planes being really accurate are all necessary for the game to work, but giving the Brits in 1942 a BP isn’t. Even if COH2 was way worse than COH3, we can make COH3 way more authentic by just removing one vehicle.

The community doesn’t throw history completely out of the window though. The comments in the new usf trailer are mostly about how it doesn’t look quite right for them.

It doesn’t matter that I keep playing the game despite of aspects I don’t like. You can test my consistency in the things I don’t like but the fact that previous games had similar things doesn’t make it okay this time around. What matters is that I am consistent in what I don’t like. Not that Relic has done worse things before.

It’s so strange you’re arguing against the people who want to remove half of the superheavies in the game, while you don’t even care about the BPs inclusion. We want to have an aspect of the game removed which you don’t like and no one is inconsistent about it either. If we’re going to talk about what Relic is realistically going to do, I might as well not post about it all together.
6 Oct 2022, 23:36 PM
#330
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1326

...They already said [that they care about history, authenticity, and that they listen to the community] when they did CoH2 and shit in their pants...


I'm dead :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
7 Oct 2022, 07:18 AM
#331
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



A WW2 game should strive to be as authentic as possible and COH3 would be a lot more authentic if the changed one unit. No one actually has a good reason for its inclusion anyway. No one asked for it and it’s not exactly a unit that ties the whole faction together.


I wanted to respond to just this section.

If a unit such as the bp ruins authentisity, why are you people silent in coh 2 about the inclusion of the st and no rescritions on heavy spam? Or about
early war soviets vs late war germany? I know why snub nose p4,s that bounce off t34's arent cool, not having panthers and tiger and wunderwaffen/niche units is detracting to the axis factions appeal and makes less money. Every one wants a big cat and then authentisity disapears.
Its quite sad that when authenticity comes for axis "gameplay and fun" is suddenly more important.

The good reasons for a unit such as the black prince is money with hype. What they did for axis in coh1 and coh 2. I 100% like it that allies now get a wunderwaffen/niche angle as well to mix it up.
And freeing allies of td spam every single game. Wich both axis and allies complain about.
7 Oct 2022, 11:55 AM
#332
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197



I wanted to respond to just this section.

If a unit such as the bp ruins authentisity, why are you people silent in coh 2 about the inclusion of the st and no rescritions on heavy spam? Or about
early war soviets vs late war germany? I know why snub nose p4,s that bounce off t34's arent cool, not having panthers and tiger and wunderwaffen/niche units is detracting to the axis factions appeal and makes less money. Every one wants a big cat and then authentisity disapears.
Its quite sad that when authenticity comes for axis "gameplay and fun" is suddenly more important.

The good reasons for a unit such as the black prince is money with hype. What they did for axis in coh1 and coh 2. I 100% like it that allies now get a wunderwaffen/niche angle as well to mix it up.
And freeing allies of td spam every single game. Wich both axis and allies complain about.


because those are balancing adjustments and the Black Prince is historical fiction.

Simple as that :)
7 Oct 2022, 11:57 AM
#333
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

It’s not on me to manufacture a history to make a fictional take on its combat history, it’s on you to find more than one alleged instance it had a success. I’m leaning towards you’ll have a tough time manufacturing a history where the sturmtiger was a successful AFV. I don’t think anyone is under the illusion it was deployed in its intended role, it wasn’t but that doesn’t make it a success story either it was a failure.

So again it’s a fictional liberty that relic took for gameplay to come back to the thread discussion. The BP is the same move. If we are going to be so concerned the BP never shipped to the front line, the Centurion mark 1 only missed combat due to the surrender of the nazi regime. More simply put, if the old men and boys fought afew days longer you would have seen the centurion on the field, so maybe swap the model of the BP to it if that’s your historical fiction line.


Black Prince Production Volume: 6 prototypes
Black Prince Combat History: None

VS

Sturmtiger Production Volume: About 22.
Sturmtiger Combat History: Western Front, Ardennes Offensive.

Tell me who is coping now, seriously.
7 Oct 2022, 12:12 PM
#334
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 2



Black Prince Production Volume: 6 prototypes
Black Prince Combat History: None

VS

Sturmtiger Production Volume: About 22.
Sturmtiger Combat History: Western Front, Ardennes Offensive.

Tell me who is coping now, seriously.

Eastern Front, Warsaw Uprising. The only thing wrong with him is that he was officially called Sturmmörser and not Sturmtiger. Otherwise, this is a tank that participated in the hostilities and even destroyed three Shermans with one shot. And not some fictitious one like the Black Prince.
7 Oct 2022, 12:36 PM
#335
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197


Eastern Front, Warsaw Uprising. The only thing wrong with him is that he was officially called Sturmmörser and not Sturmtiger. Otherwise, this is a tank that participated in the hostilities and even destroyed three Shermans with one shot. And not some fictitious one like the Black Prince.


Oh yeah totally forgot about that.

Thanks for the addition!
7 Oct 2022, 12:38 PM
#336
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197

People both Like and dislike the unit, both camps existing isn't going to be a reason to remove the unit. folks may want to attempt to disagree on the ST having an unsuccessfully history but thankfully relic doesn't seem to disagree from their own development statements. So if folks cant cede that there have been some borderline wacky choices and changes to a units real world history of success that's ok, no need to debate against stubborn refusal. Relic has done their homework (as id hope they did) and they are aware that they took those wack not very true to life route with units like the KT and Jagdtiger for an interesting product.

Some people want it some people don't, and again I don't think you can please everyone. I like to hear Relic reasoning that they want to weigh those previous inclusions that were fictional representations and use that going forward to make some new inclusions. And again the Skink would be a cool inclusion as since number don't matter to Relic, it would be a cool compatriot to the whirblwind and the Centurion would have seen the war if only the surrender hadn't come as it was shipped with the intent to do the same battlefield testing as Pershing. I'm glad relic didn't go full historical in COH otherwise it would have been a pretty limited franchise, we've seen some cool units and abilities that aren't true to their life nature.


So basically you are saying you are neither for nor against BP and simply want to sit down and point out how "shitty" ST was and how "stupid" JT/KT was.

Sounds like hard coping to me.
7 Oct 2022, 12:40 PM
#337
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197



We still can’t say if they are going to add the soviets or not. Right now in COH3, the Black Prince does stand out. You can say that taking liberties is acceptable and that the previous game was worse but that doesn’t change the reality in COH3. A WW2 game should strive to be as authentic as possible and COH3 would be a lot more authentic if the changed one unit. No one actually has a good reason for its inclusion anyway. No one asked for it and it’s not exactly a unit that ties the whole faction together. A game based on a historic period is obviously more complicated than being either authentic or inauthentic. Taking mechanical liberties like tanks taking four at gun shots and planes being really accurate are all necessary for the game to work, but giving the Brits in 1942 a BP isn’t. Even if COH2 was way worse than COH3, we can make COH3 way more authentic by just removing one vehicle.

The community doesn’t throw history completely out of the window though. The comments in the new usf trailer are mostly about how it doesn’t look quite right for them.

It doesn’t matter that I keep playing the game despite of aspects I don’t like. You can test my consistency in the things I don’t like but the fact that previous games had similar things doesn’t make it okay this time around. What matters is that I am consistent in what I don’t like. Not that Relic has done worse things before.

It’s so strange you’re arguing against the people who want to remove half of the superheavies in the game, while you don’t even care about the BPs inclusion. We want to have an aspect of the game removed which you don’t like and no one is inconsistent about it either. If we’re going to talk about what Relic is realistically going to do, I might as well not post about it all together.


No point replying to those two anymore friend. They just prove time and time again they are willing to take any hit on their favorite game as long as "wehraboos are OWNED!!!!111ONEONEONE". A Faustian bargain, so to speak.

Wait until COH3 comes out and the unit hits the ground that's all I will say.
7 Oct 2022, 13:10 PM
#338
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



Black Prince Production Volume: 6 prototypes
Black Prince Combat History: None

VS

Sturmtiger Production Volume: About 22.
Sturmtiger Combat History: Western Front, Ardennes Offensive.

Tell me who is coping now, seriously.


The st was produced 19 times and you keep increasing the numbers. Fist it was 20 now its 22. You are making it up as you go?

That combat history of the st is not even note worthy. Stop pretending it is. At its very best its vague and scetchy. Again fireing a few shots while doing next to nothing in a battle is not much better then not going further then prototype stage.
7 Oct 2022, 13:16 PM
#339
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



because those are balancing adjustments and the Black Prince is historical fiction.

Simple as that :)


How is it fiction when 6 prototypes got build and we have one still intact?

How is misrepresenting history a balance decision in a game supposedly very focused on authentisity? And presenting a tank based on a working and actively serving tank fiction?

Again authentisity takes some very big steps to background when it concerns axis factions. Yet minds get blown when this goes in favor off allies.
7 Oct 2022, 14:33 PM
#340
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1197



The st was produced 19 times and you keep increasing the numbers. Fist it was 20 now its 22. You are making it up as you go?

That combat history of the st is not even note worthy. Stop pretending it is. At its very best its vague and scetchy. Again fireing a few shots while doing next to nothing in a battle is not much better then not going further then prototype stage.


The one decent question here. Thanks for bringing it up.

Sturmtiger, due to its nature as a very specific purpose vehicle, was not at first directly recorded at the Wehrmacht's Inventory Designation with the "SturmTiger" tag simply because they did not know how to label it since it had a Tiger I chassis but a custom made 274kg breechloading Raketenwerfer. It is estimated that the first five models were not registered with the PzStuMrKp designation. As such the number of available ST produced varies between 19-25 models. Obviously not of statistical significance but you had one jab to take me down and you took advantage of it.

Nice try tho.

Note: A very interesting analysis of the SturmTiger effectiveness can be found here JENTZ, Thomas L. & DOYLE, Hilary L. Panzer Tracts No. 20-1 - Paper Panzers : Panzerkampfwagen, Sturmgeschuetz, and Jagdpanzer. Boyds, MD : Panzer Tracts, 2001. 60 p. ISBN 0-9708407-3-X.

As for the combat effectiveness part your take is dumb for two reasons: first nobody can effectively assess a vehicle that was produced for a specific purpose but never seriously got a chance to prove itself on it. Leaving wikipedia aside and actually reading the literature, you will find (as noted above) that the ST was used only once for its intented role, that is close range urban warfare scenarios.

In the Warsaw uprising it was used to take down buildings purportedly belonging to the populace fighting. It was deadly effective. In a common combat scenario I would imagine not so.

HOWEVER, and that's where your retardedness really shines, when you attempt to compare ST vs BP you fail automatically because BP NEVER FOUGHT.

So following the argument line: "ST was niche -> BP was niche => BP should be included in COH3" is 100% braindead talk simply because BP was never a vehicle that fought.

Comparing the combat record of both is ridiculous and anybody who says so should be ashamed of spouting such nonsense to stick it to bad wEhRaBoOs.
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